4C/ID for Foreign Language Communication Teaching with Anna Lebedinets
In this episode, I sit down with Anna Lebedinets, a researcher and instructional designer exploring how empathic listening and culturally nuanced communication can transform language learning. Her and her colleagues recent study examines how integrating psychological and sociocultural components within the 4C/ID model can bridge performance gaps and enhance students' preparedness for real-life cross-cultural interactions. We discuss why traditional language teaching often falls short in developing meaningful communication skills and how this innovative approach can help learners become more culturally adaptive.
π Learn more about Anna and her research:
π Recommendations:
π My Book
π₯ Join our Group
π Connect with me:
π Support the Channel!
Transcript:
Luke (00:00)
Today's episode is brought to you by Instructional Design Institute. Is your goal in 2025 to go back to the basics when it comes to design? If yes, then our fundamentals course is right for you. This is a type of a seven week learning experience where we cover everything as far as from andragogy, analysis, backward design, gen AI, UDL, evaluation methods, you name it, we go through essentially every type of component.
that makes up what it means to create a meaningful, relevant, and interesting type of learning experience. And the best part about this course by far is that you don't go through the course alone. It's a cohort type of a base model. So you're going to be thinking together, sharing, collaborating, the whole focus and the point of everything.
is to learn from others and that comes from the breakout rooms, the discussions and everything else of a sort. And throughout the past six cohorts, we've had pretty much everyone take this course from teachers to professors to deans to of course, instructional designers and any other role you can basically think of within the educational sphere. All folks are welcome on and partake inside of this course. So whether your goal is to be able to advance in your career, whether it's to be able to walk away if a type of a portfolio
or just to be able to learn the skills that are going to apply immediately into your workplace. That's what this course is all about. And the official last day to sign up for the course is Wednesday, March 5th. That is going to be our first live session. So go down below inside of a show notes apply today. Can't wait to see you there. And now let's start the show. Hello, Learning Nerds and welcome on in to the nerdiest podcast that you're going to hear today. I'm your host. My name is Dr. Luke Hobson.
I'm an assistant director of instructional design and author, blogger, podcaster, and instructor. And my purpose is to be able to help you learn more about instructional design, about teaching, and about learning. And you can find all of the fabulous resources that I have for you over at drlewcompson.com. So rhetorical question for you, have you ever tried to learn a new language? I know that I have, and I've taken four years of Spanish and all that I really remember.
is how to be able to say, Donde esta la biblioteca? Not very useful for the real world. What if there was a different way instead of thinking about trying to be able to perfectly match up word for word, direct translations and definitions? Well, today's guest is going to share with you a different approach. I'm going to assume it's something that you haven't heard of before. And when she recently wrote to me saying that her and her colleagues have conducted this research,
which has been labeled as the 4C ID for foreign language communication teaching. I was reading her white paper. Now it's just like, this is fascinating. And I'm diving into this more. And the purpose of the study that her and her colleagues conducted was to be able to investigate the effectiveness of a specialized instructional approach that combines empathetic listening and culturally nuanced communication skills.
to enhance students preparedness for real life cross-cultural interactions. So once again, not just thinking about learning from a textbook around definitions, but if you were thrusted into the world of a different type of a language, trying to be able to figure out what is actually going to best serve people and talking, of course, more about the study from an instructional design perspective, from a teaching perspective, it was really interesting. And the instructional design model that she used, by the way,
is something that I have never heard of before. I was just like, what are the chances of being able to learn a new instructional design model with also talking to about trying to be more effective from teaching foreign languages? So an absolutely fascinating episode for you today. So I don't want to waste any more time and I'm going to welcome in our guest. Here is the one and the only Dr. Anna Lebedinets. Anna, welcome to the podcast.
Anna (04:04)
Thank you for having me here.
Luke (04:06)
Of course it is my pleasure. And once again, I am so glad that we found a time zone that works for the both of us to be able to do because when you were inside of the course for instructional design Institute and you were joining in every single time at 4 a.m. I was like, I don't know how she's doing this, but like hats off to you for not just even showing up, but even like participating and actively working hard and everything. So all the credit in the world to you for being able to do that so early in the morning, by the way.
this had to throw that out there before we started. But Anna, for those who don't know who you are, can you just introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a bit more about who you are and what is it that you do?
Anna (04:49)
Yeah, thank you. And your course was just amazing, one of the best in my life. yeah, it was amazing. Even with four AM lessons for me. Yeah, I'm a cognitive researcher working both at academia and the ad tech industry. I'm an analyst and instructional designer at Step by Step, a company that creates individualized learning paths for children based on a wide range of personal data.
Luke (04:54)
I'll take it.
Anna (05:15)
I also provide research consultations at National Research University Higher School of Economics. And this year I'm developing and teaching my own university course on language teaching, which will launch in September.
Luke (05:27)
Hey, awesome. Congratulations. That's fantastic. Thank you. Very cool. So our whole episode today on up is around foreign language communication teaching. And I'm to do my best to make sure that I'm not messing up any of these words in this type of order for everything. But when you sent out your research and saying, but you want to talk more about it on the show, I absolutely was this like, yes, I would love to learn more because I don't know really.
anything about how we teach foreign languages, where are the best approaches and everything. And all that I keep on thinking about is going back to school when I was taking, I took like four years of Spanish. And what I can tell you, but I remember from four years of Spanish is that I can ask you where the library is. That's about it. So clearly there's some disconnects around how, least back when I went to school for trying to be able to use a language in the
real world and not just trying to memorize things again and again and again, but for trying to think about the context, the culture and everything beyond that, like that is obviously very important when it comes to being able to learn a language properly. In your opinion, as the expert, what do you think is really this issue around the entire topic of trying to be able to learn a new language?
Anna (06:48)
Well, from a cognitive linguistics perspective, language is not a single atomic skill, but rather a set of interconnected skills influenced by various cognitive and effective processes. While language learning doesn't produce the desired results, many factors could be at play. And in case of the US, unlike many European countries with national rules for learning foreign languages, the US has no national standard, right? And that alone might make a difference.
However, I think the bigger problem, not just in the US, is that language education focuses too much on the linguistic aspect. The thing is communication isn't just about language, right? It's shaped by culture, emotions, nonverbal cues, and social norms. Research in cross-cultural psychology shows that different communities not only speak different languages, but also express emotions differently, follow different social rules, and apply norms in their own ways.
and emotions are key. They shape how we connect with others and interpret social situations. However, these aspects of communication are rarely taught systematically in language education. I think that lost educators would agree that culture is important in language learning, but it's often added randomly to small notes here and there without practice or assessment, or sometimes students take a separate theoretical course which gives them a foundation but doesn't really help in real conversations.
So I worked to change that in my teaching by designing lessons where students don't just learn about cultural behaviors, they practice them. For example, I've taught them to each other body language and reactions for different cultural settings. By integrating this into both the curriculum and assessments, I saw a real shift in how students engaged with communication on a deep level.
Luke (08:34)
Before we dive in deeper of everything, I like to understand more about the history of teaching languages because really, once again, I don't know so much about this area at all. And in your paper, you cited communicative language teaching that was developed back in the 1970s. Can you tell us more about this?
Anna (08:51)
Yes, sure. Communicative language teaching, or it is also called the communicative approach, came about as a reaction to traditional methods that focus highly on grammar and translation. The idea was to bridge the gap between knowing the theory of language and gaining practical skills to use it in real life. This was a huge step forward in language teaching. But there's a catch. This approach still sticks pretty closely to a linguistic perspective without really bringing in insights from other fields.
That's probably why socio-cultural aspects of communication aren't explicitly taught. Students are just expected to pick them up naturally. Later when I explain how we designed our experimental group, I'll go into more detail about why that can be a problem.
Luke (09:36)
That makes sense. Okay. So that's going back to more about how I essentially learned language in high school and trying to be able to just to have that, you know, beaten into my head and hoping that maybe something is going to stick. So now we're fast forwarding to modern day and you and your colleagues were inspired to be able to apply the four component instructional design model, which is shorthanded to 4C ID. And by the way, I thought I knew of every instructional design model. And then you gave me a new one. I was just like,
What is that? haven't heard of this one before. So the 4C ID model and this is for foreign language communication teaching. So for those who don't know what this model is, can you provide a bit more information about it?
Anna (10:18)
Yeah, sure. So the 4CID model is a framework for designing learning experiences, especially for complex skills. For example, it is used in healthcare a lot, and it was developed by Iruna Van Buren and colleagues in the 1990s and stands for four components of instructional design. The idea is that mastering a skill isn't just about learning isolated pieces of knowledge, it's about integrating different elements in a meaningful way. The model is built around
four key components, as it is always from the name, learning tasks, supportive information, just-in-time information, and part-task practice. So learning tasks are realistic whole task activities. Supportive information is theory and guidance. Just-in-time information, quick practical tips when needed. And part-task practice is focused real-space specific skills.
Luke (11:13)
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So then taking now that model and now we're bringing this into your study and your research with your colleagues. What was your study about and how'd you start to be able to approach this?
Anna (11:26)
Yeah, I guess that's a long story,
Luke (11:29)
Loaded question. know it's a long question, but please feel free to go in as much detail as you can.
Anna (11:34)
Yeah, I'll try to do my best. So I believe one of the hardest parts of teaching a language is helping students sound authentic. A lot of learners assume that a new language is just a different set of words, so with a slightly different grammar. So they try to translate their thoughts word for word. And for simple, straightforward sentences, that can work. For instance, like, the cat is black or I'm a student.
came out pretty much the same in English, Russian, and Japanese. So like, duolingo style, right? But things get tricky when a sentence carries emotional or social meaning. In those cases, the overall idea isn't just the sound of its words, it's shaped by cultural norms, unspoken rules, and subtle context cues. That's where direct translation falls apart. And that's exactly the challenge I wanted to tackle. So for example,
Take the Japanese phrase, η³γ訳γγγγΎγγγ Well, literally it means something like, I have no words to justify myself. Well, that sounds pretty strong, I would say. But it's a common way to apologize, especially in formal situations. So for example, if someone calls your workplace asking for a colleague who isn't there, you might say, η³γ訳γγγγΎγγγη°δΈγγγγγΎγγγ Which literally means, I have no words to justify myself.η°δΈγγ isn't here.
But in English, you'd probably just say, I'm sorry, Tanaka isn't here right now. The tricky part is that η³γ訳γγγγΎγγ carries a much stronger emotional load, that I'm sorry, and it's used pretty casually in Japanese. So how should language learners handle phrases like that? Should we just memorize them all? That's not exactly practical, I believe, and there has to be a better way. So when I started working on this challenge, I decided to run a little experiment.
I pilot studied in the form of a special event called Kokeshin, which means curiosity in Japanese. It was part of my Japanese course and brought together native Japanese speakers who were learning Russian. While speaking clubs are common in language learning, Kokeshin was different because of the way it was structured. Instead of just showing up and chatting, students went through an extensive preparation phase interacting with native speakers from the very beginning. Each session focused on the same thing, say, movies.
Students wrote short texts on the topic, which were exchanged with native speakers, but the feedback wasn't just about fixing grammar. The native speakers also checked the socio-cultural appropriateness. For example, in Japanese, direct criticism is often softened or avoided altogether to prevent embarrassment. Instead of saying you're late, a Japanese speaker might say something like, we're all rather late sometimes, to share responsibility and keep things polite.
What made Koukishien special was how it helped systemize this kind of cultural phrases, which learners usually pick up randomly. Instead of structuring lessons around grammar and vocabulary, we flipped the approach. We started with real social situations that were relevant to students, and that introduced the language they actually need in those situations. This fits with the communicative approach, but I took it a step further by incorporating both verbal and nonverbal behavior, things like body language, social norms, and cultural nuances.
into the curriculum and even the assessment. It turned out to be a really effective way to make communication feel more concrete and natural rather than abstract and rule-based. So after that, I decided to test it in a more controlled setting. I'm incredibly grateful to my colleagues who made this study possible. Hanako Kagata played a huge role. She carefully reviewed all the materials and believed that that was a lot of work.
and she helped me to refine every detail to make sure the Japanese communication was as natural as possible. big thank you also goes to Alexandra Mazalova and Evgeny Shukheyev, who helped with cognitive testing and data analysis, and to Alina Samokhina for her expertise in statistics. So for the study, we used a classical effect-size experiment model, meaning that both the experimental and control groups followed quite the same general lesson structure.
But there was a key difference. The experimental group received structured socio-cultural training alongside their language lessons, while the cultural group took a more traditional approach, learning about Japanese culture in a theoretical way, covering topics like Buddhism and Sinsel. Both groups had interaction with native speakers, which is really important, so everyone got real-life exposure to Japanese communication.
But the results made something very clear. Just talking to native speakers wasn't enough. A structured approach was necessary, after all. At first, I wondered if simple immersion, just being exposed to the language and culture, would be enough for students to pick up things like body language and social norms, but the experiments show that students who receive systematic instruction perform significantly better in socio-cultural competence.
This highlights an important issue with both the communicative approach and language immersion while some students naturally pick up cultural nuances others don't and as educators our job is to make sure everyone learns not just the ones who like Intuitively grasp these subtleties One of the most exciting findings was that this approach helped close the gap between high and low achievers That was a key focus of my study and seeing it in action was was really cool
Luke (17:10)
Interesting. All right. You said a lot. So thank you for that. Which I know was the question of like, tell me about your study. And you're like, here's the 30 pages I wrote Luke, which is like, yeah, that's that could have been phrased better. But I want to unpack a couple of things too, because there was some questions that came up as you were speaking about this. The first is sounds like you had colleagues who were a fluid in Japanese. So that became the topic. But how did you pick Japanese? Because when I was thinking about
What is a type of a language that people from the outside looking in don't understand about from the culture of norms, everything else of the sort. I can't think of a more different language than Japanese because that's the one that's built on respect. All the sayings that you were just mentioning about to where it sounds severe, but there's not a right equivalent for it in the English language. And even with when it comes to bowing and signs of respect and like all I try learning Japanese, by the way, which is why
I thought this was so fascinating. It's like, tried this and who am I? It's just so different. The kanji, everything. It's like everything is so different. So why Japanese? I want to start there.
Anna (18:15)
Yeah, so that was the reason I've chosen Japanese. The thing is that it's completely different from the European languages. And I decided that it is the best way to show that the instruction is needed when it comes to such a different culture. Because for example, I'm Russian and I know there are some differences, for example, with the way we express our emotions in Russia and in America.
But I know a lot of people who live in America and well, yes, they probably sometimes, fear to understand some subtleties, but more or less it works. But with Japanese, wouldn't work at all. I mean, it will be very hard just to, you know, start a short conversation and be quite effective in that. If you don't understand the cultural nuances, it was just the best way to show it.
Luke (19:06)
So that's right.
No, that makes, it makes plenty of sense because I've seen to a number of videos online of, Americans going to visit Japan and just basically botching and just messing up everything. Cause they don't know. They have no idea. And this, this type of whether it's going to be, and I know it's very stereotypical of like the loud American who goes and seems extremely rude because they have no idea what they're doing. And it's like, yeah, that's not how this works here. You can't just do that. It's such a different society, a different way of
of interacting that we don't do over here in the States. So I'm sure that has to be very different to be able to learn about. And when you were mentioning too, with everything for educating these folks, the other thing that I, I believe this is all done in person, right? This wasn't zoom. This wasn't online. It was in person or was it, or was it more.
Anna (19:57)
That was Zoom. And it was Zoom. Yes, when we were talking to native speakers, some of them, they just leave in Japan.
Luke (20:04)
Of
course, of course. So then from that perspective, how did you capture everything via zoom? Cause I'm sure trying to be able, as you mentioned, capturing body language and signs of that nature. Was there something that folks are trying to be able to really look for in this type of a screen as opposed to just naturally observing? Like how did that go?
Anna (20:26)
100 % yeah. Well, when you talk, just why zoom with a native speaker of Japanese, you will soon understand that first of all, for example, in Russia, we can, I know, do something like that and or like that. And that wouldn't be rude, but in Japan, they see straight. And this is a very important sign of politeness. The other thing is, they focus.
on you, mean, they try to control where they are. I don't know how to express that actually. I mean, they try to control the way that they are very attentive to you. So they try to show that they are involved, I would say. Yeah, that's very important to end this my lot. I think that probably more than Americans do. So, yeah.
These things are pretty obvious if you compare it and it is even obvious when you just chat online.
Luke (21:32)
I was just trying to think about that. was just like, wow, that has to be challenging to try to be able to do. once again, when I was taking a nowhere near the scope of things, but when I was trying to be able to learn Japanese, it was during the middle of lockdown and I had to learn about it via zoom and I hired a tutor that I found online and that's what we did. And it was, it was different.
It was really interesting and I knew that there were actually groups in Boston who did meet up and actually did not at that time. Everything was locked down. I was like, I kind of wonder if I were to do it over all over again, if I actually went to a more traditional classroom environment, would that change how I approach things besides just the basics? So I was wondering about that. Do you encounter any other challenges along the way with
your study, because I know it was, you mentioned quite a few things before we just talked about some of those different types of questions. there any challenges that kind of came up along the way?
Anna (22:29)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenge was figuring out how to create practical exercises for social cultural aspects, especially since most of the disciplines I drew from don't have standard applications. mean, for example, like sociology or ethnography, there are no like particular exercises how to, I don't know, try to behave differently. Well, more in accordance with social rules of a different community. So
There wasn't really a single framework that combined all aspects, so I had to piece it together myself. And one approach that proved particularly useful was empathic listening, something I could apply directly in practice. I also integrated elements from disciplines like cross-cultural psychology to address aspects such as body language and behavior descriptions.
Luke (23:22)
So going from that, that's actually really interesting to think about that from that type of perspective. Well, then let's take the flip side of that. What were the improvements? What did you actually see from the experimental group to the control group?
Anna (23:38)
Yeah, so the experimental group outperform the control group and their ability to sustain a dialogue, even when faced with challenges such as encountering an unknown word or a misunderstanding, which is very important when we talk about elementary students. Because there are many situations like that happening all the time. And the methodology used to measure this is explained in detail in my article. I'm not going to dive into that.
Another notable finding is that the results within the experimental group were more consistent. Whereas the control group exhibited a wider gap between high and low achievers.
Luke (24:14)
So you also, because I did read your research and you mentioned about one thing too, but I wanted to ask more about was that the, the difference as far as for, with the results from the oral exam results versus the written exam results. And I know that there was a difference, as far as for it to tell us more about that. Cause that was really interesting.
Anna (24:39)
Yeah, actually there was no statistically significant difference for the written test and I think that happened because of the nature of the written exam I've chosen. I specifically chose the most common test formers reading, writing, listening and grammar to highlight the difference between traditional written test results and ability to actually use a language in communication.
My goal was to see if these skills are truly separate and to show that just because someone does well on a written test doesn't necessarily mean they can speak the language effectively. So I don't think this result is about the written modality itself. Rather, if the written exam had been something like a reflective piece on a topic with deep emotional significance, I believe the Force80 model would have had an inkpick there too.
Luke (25:26)
So going from that based on your findings, do you believe that the four C ID model should become a standard in foreign language education for going forwards?
Anna (25:36)
Well, I don't think that the FOSATI model itself should become a standard. I would rather say that it's a great fit for language teaching, and I don't believe we've fully explored all the potentials of it. In my research, I want to emphasize, however, the need for a multidisciplinary or even better transdisciplinary theoretical framework for communication. The key is not to rely on just one model, but to use approaches that can integrate insights from multiple fields.
Any model that has the capacity to bring different areas of knowledge together would be a strong candidate.
Luke (26:11)
Sure. Do would you, if you were, and I didn't ask you this question before from what I sent over, but if you were to go back and do it all over, would you pick a different model or in your opinion, you're like, no, it's more about the main heart of what we're talking about. And it could apply hypothetically into others.
Anna (26:29)
Well, I think I wouldn't change the model for this experiment, but when I think about playing it for, for example, other age groups or something like that, I think that probably some other models can be a good candidate as well.
Luke (26:43)
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause I'm trying to think too about where else from what you were doing, where else could this extend beyond just learning languages from this capacity? Like is, could this extend into healthcare or for business or for like, is there other areas where this actually could go into?
Anna (27:04)
Yeah, yeah, I believe that the aspects of my approach that integrate conventional language learning with social cultural aspects, such as body language and communicative strategies can be applied to other areas of language teaching as well. I think that the structure of this instructional model is highly adaptable to other languages and settings. It's more about adjusting the content rather than the method itself. Take health care, for example, if we're teaching language to help professionals communicate with patients.
The course content needs to include medical terminology along with language structures that match the appropriate tone of voice. And since this is a formal setting, we also need to teach culturally appropriate professional behavior. So instead of focusing on how people interact at social gatherings, we emphasize how to maintain professionalism even when the patient is feeling overwhelmed with emotions which happen in health care. So yeah, I think yes.
Luke (28:01)
That makes a lot of sense to me as far as for that goes. What are with thinking about for going forward? What are the next steps in your research with forward language and education? What are you going to be planning on doing next?
Anna (28:14)
Yeah, there are a few directions I'm exploring right now. So first, I'm developing a task to evaluate socio-cultural skills independently of language proficiency, aiming to monitor students' progress in cross-cultural psychology. And second, I'm open to collaborations to adapt this methodology for different contexts, whether it's different languages, settings, language learning goals, or age groups.
And third, I want to explore how we can make this kind of education more flexible for neurodivergent learners. I'm really interested in neurodiversity and education and that's something I'd love to dive deeper into like in the coming years.
Luke (28:56)
That's awesome. That's awesome here. I didn't even think about that from that perspective. That makes a ton of sense. And I'm so glad that you mentioned about that from that neurodiversity perspective. Anna, it has been an absolute pleasure to learn more about you, your research and where this is going in the future. And I really, really hope that like the next time we talk several years from now, trying to be able to learn a new language has a whole different type of a more effective approach compared to what I went through in high school and trying to keep on making this better and better.
Where can people go to learn more about you and your research? Where can they connect with you?
Anna (29:30)
Well, I think that I can send you the link so you can edit somewhere in the description.
Luke (29:36)
I was gonna say they can find you on LinkedIn. know that at least. And of course, I absolutely, I will put it in the show notes for them to be able to read your research as well. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast once again. Really appreciate it.
Anna (29:44)
Thank you
I really appreciate this opportunity. Thank you, Dr. Lu. And it was nice to see you again.
Luke (29:53)
Yes. To actually not see you also at 4 a.m. was a pleasure as well.
Anna (29:58)
That was amazing.
Luke (30:00)
Well, Anna, once again, thank you so much for coming on the show. After today's episode, I feel inspired to try and learn Japanese again. I don't have the time by any means. If I'm being very honest, I definitely don't have the time to learn a new language, but it's something that I've always been thinking about and having conversations with people who are just so intelligent and amazing at being able to speak multiple languages like with Anna. It's something that I keep on saying. It's something that I have.
to do. is definitely on the bucket list and folks go down below inside of a show notes if you want to be able to check out more about Dr. Anna's research and to be able to read about her white paper and of course feel free to send her over an invitation on LinkedIn. And once again folks as a reminder as Anna was mentioning about she has taken the instructional design fundamentals course before and today March 5th is when I'm recording this introduction is the very last day to sign up for the course.
because our first webinar kicks off tonight, actually at 8 PM Eastern time. So if this is something you want to be able to do, feel free to submit your application and make sure that you get it in today. And that will be the end for signing up for this cohort. And that my friends, that is all I have for you today. Stay nerdy out there and I'll talk to you next time.
A tremendous thank you to our sponsors! By supporting them, you support this independent podcast.
Instructional Design Institute
Learn to design meaningful learning experiences in 7-weeks
Brightspace by D2L
Try D2L Brightspace for 30 Days. Get instant access and see for yourself why millions love Brightspace
