EP-86: Andragogy and Designing Learning Experiences
How do you design learning experiences for adults? In today's episode, I'll cover Andragogy, the method and practice of teaching adult learners. I'll share about my best tips around Andragogical principles and how to apply them into your learning experiences.
Mentioned Links:
The Adult Learner (Note: this is an affiliate link)
Transcripts are down below
Recommendations:
📙 My Book
Connect with me:
🙌 Support the Channel!
A tremendous thank you to our sponsors! By supporting them, you support this independent podcast.
IDOL Courses Academy
Use my promo code LUKE to save you 88 dollars off of your enrollment.
Apply to Instructional Design Institute
Take your instructional design skills to the next level
Transcript:
Why hello, learning nerds! Before we begin today's show, I want to thank our awesome sponsors. First, giving a shout-out to Idol Courses Academy. Idol Academy is the first and only authorized vocational school for instructional design and online learning. It includes a comprehensive hands-on curriculum with certifications, credentials, expert coaches, mentors, a community of practice, paid experience opportunities, industry-preferred software access, live events, and ongoing updates. Your entire instructional design career is neatly packaged behind a single login for just $88 a month. Check out all the details at idolcourses.com Academy, and you can use my code, Luke, for $88 off the yearly membership. Okay, now let's start the show.
Hello, learning nerds, and welcome to the nerdiest podcast you're going to hear today. I'm your host, Dr. Luke Hobson. I'm a senior instructional designer, program manager, lecturer, author, blogger, and podcaster. Overall, I am your learning nerd because I consider it my mission and my purpose to be able to help you along your learning journey. Whether this is learning about the very basics and fundamentals of instructional design or something a bit more complicated and advanced with different forms of learning techniques and strategies, all are welcomed to the show. And of course, you can find out more about this show over at drlukeHobson.com.
I have two announcements for you. The first is that the course on collaborating and building relationships with subject matter experts is launching again on October 30th, not too far away. This course is for instructional designers, educators, aspiring instructional designers, and those who want to get ahead of the curve about how you work with other people. It sounds simple in theory; however, anyone will tell you who has been in a difficult position before working with an SME and you're like, "I don't get it. Why aren't they responding back to me? They're ghosting me. I asked them to do X, instead they did Y." Is there a better method of being able to work with people? The answer is yes. You can learn from my mistakes, which is how this course was actually created. Giving you a step-by-step guide, a framework on what to follow on how to work with other people, so hopefully you don't have the same types of mistakes that I made pop up for you in the future. This is, by the way, a blended learning approach. Almost everything in the course is asynchronous: the activities, the assessments, the content. But of course, I love being able to do live workshops and teach more about this. So there are optional live workshops. If this sounds interesting to you, be sure to sign up. There are only 15 spots left. I make sure to cap it at a certain number because if it gets too high, then I cannot give you as much support as I want to, which is physically not possible. Hey, sign up today, and I can't wait to see you inside the class.
The other announcement is that the third cohort for Instructional Design Institute is going to be launching on December 11th. You probably already know what this is, but just in case you are a first-time listener and you haven't heard about this before, this is our 7-week instructional design boot camp. Teaching you everything you need to know about the fundamentals of designing learning experiences, like with andragogy, universal design for learning, backward design, evaluation, analysis, and really everything of the sort about how do you create meaningful learning experiences. And of course, we go into career tips; we talk about portfolios, interviews, branding, and everything else of a sort. Essentially, I share with you as much as I possibly can, really within 7 weeks, without overwhelming you. And you've probably already seen a bunch of postings lately on LinkedIn because the last cohort just wrapped up, and they did incredible. By far, my favorite part about Instructional Design Institute is seeing the transformations from students. From those who walk in for the first time either saying, "I have never done this before. I don't know how to do this," or perhaps they never had a proper type of mentor or coach inside their job, and they became an instructional designer and they're like, "Now what? How do I exactly go about this?" And then seeing how much people change by the end of seven weeks, looking at their portfolios, designing their courses, everything else. It's truly my favorite thing about Instructional Design Institute. Hence, if you see a whole bunch of posts from me, raving about how well these folks have been doing, that's why.
So, if either the course about working with subject matter experts or the Instructional Design Institute and talking about the 7-week boot camp sound interesting to you, check out the show notes below and sign up today. Once again, I can't wait to see you inside the class.
So folks, let's dive into today's topic. Today, we're talking about andragogy. I posted on LinkedIn the other day about all these different ideas that came to me all at once for future blog posts, podcast episodes, YouTube videos, and one of the clear favorites by far from you was andragogy, which is the science behind how adults learn. Now, andragogy is not to be confused with pedagogy, which is the science behind how adolescents and kids learn. If you're wondering why you have never seen the term "andragogy" before, it's because everything you see in different forms of job postings or reading about research or whatever, everyone always talks about pedagogy, almost like this is the universal phrase for talking about how people learn. And my friends, that is not true. Pedagogy does not mean everybody. Especially for the different types of things I see on LinkedIn and in different job postings from a learning and development perspective. They might say in one line about how they want someone who has experience teaching adults, and then the next line talks about pedagogical best practices. And I'm like, "Well, that's wrong." So today, we need to dive into andragogy. If you're wondering, are there similarities between andragogy and pedagogy? Yes, there certainly are. But of course, are there differences? Yes, 100%. I would teach a 5-year-old in a very different way from a 55-year-old. That's because adults have different wants, needs, and expectations. By far, absolutely, there are similarities, but we definitely need to talk more about the ins and outs of andragogy and what makes this so unique. Oh, and by the way, one thing I know that's really weird but I definitely want to call out first, is that it is pronounced as "andragogy." It is not "andra-GO-gi." Same thing with pedagogy; it is not "peda-GO-gi"> I know the way of the spelling makes you want to say it like that, but just an FYI, it's "andragogy" and "andragogical" methods and things of that sort.
So where did andragogy come from? We need to think back to educator and researcher Dr. Malcolm Knowles, with his research dating back to the 60s and 70s. He realized there are different forms of motivations, assumptions, and principles.
"From and how I have used it for designing and teaching my own learning experiences. So, for this podcast episode, to make it simple, we're going to cover the six principles of Andrei. I'm going to go in order of them, I'll break them down a little bit more to help with everything. And yeah, why don't we get this started? Have you ever taken a course or a training before that had no explanation as to why you were taking it? It just basically appeared inside of your dashboard, you received an email saying, "Hey, you need to be able to take this." And of course, the entire time you're thinking, "Well, why? This sounds similar to something that I did before. Or I don't understand. How is this going to help me in my job?" It feels like I'm just going through the motions here, trying to be able to check a box and then to move on to the next thing. And if you have ever experienced anything like that before, then you now know about the significance and the importance of sharing with students and learners about essentially the "why" behind the ask. Which is the first principle: the need to know the "why." Essentially, adults are thinking about how their time is valuable; they don't have that much of it. So when they are given a task to be able to accomplish something, the first thing that they think about inside of their heads is, "Well, what's in this for me? How is this going to help me? If I do this, then what is going to be the byproduct of this task? What is going to be the end result?"
You would probably assume that this would come naturally, to be able to share with someone, especially in 2023, about why they're being asked to do something. We're not part of the military; you don't just take commands from a drill sergeant. But at the same time, I know that there are plenty of people out there who do not have the best of leadership or management, and they are told to go do X and never given an explanation as to why. There are different ways about being able to explain the reason as to why. Hopefully, this was already done before the person had to go into the training or the course or whatever it is, but if not, then this needs to be inside of the learning experience. For me, I like to be able to do this inside of a learning objectives section of the course. And usually, what I'll do is that I will list out the learning objective, and then I will write a blurb below that, explaining a little bit more in-depth as far as how this information is going to be used, how it's going to be relevant, and once again, what's inside of this for them. There are a few different ways about being able to approach this type of technique, but overall, you need to share with people about the ask and about the why. The next principle is talking about the fact that adults come with a wealth of knowledge when they are coming into our form of a learning experience. You don't just wipe the slate clean every single time; we have to take into consideration their past experiences. And that's what the second principle is. What we know from research, and what I have seen when it comes to my own instructional design courses, is the more that you can take into consideration the past experiences of your students and your learners, the more that they are going to proactively want to be involved inside of this learning process. For instance, one of the known steps is being able to allow your students and learners to be able to plan their instruction with you. So let me give you an example: inside of my courses talking about instructional design, the students pick what their final project is going to be. And inside of these courses, their final project is that they are going to be designing a learning experience of their choosing. It would not make any sense for me to be able to say that you must build a course on X because I said so. That doesn't make a lot of sense in the real world.
As instructional designers, does that happen where you get assigned to be able to build out learning experiences that you do not have a background in? Absolutely. But for those who are just learning about the very essentials and the fundamentals, I want to build up that confidence and that momentum. I want you to be able to pick and choose something that's near and dear to your heart, and that way I know that you're going to very much want to be able to see this all the way until the end. Another factor to take into consideration for past experiences is trying to be able to survey people at the beginning before the learning experience happens. So whether this is going to be 4 weeks out, 2 weeks out, or even one week out, whatever the timeframe is, the more of it you can ask your students and learners, the better. And you should be asking them questions about, essentially, why are you here? How can I help you? What are your goals? Tell me more about why you signed up for this program in the first place. What would be deemed as a success for you by the end of the next 7, 10 weeks, whatever the program is? Getting this information is going to help you out greatly for knowing more about your target audience and incorporating those past experiences into the overall design and flow of your type of course or training or whatever you're building.
For instance, I do this with every single course that I have, as far as what I am the instructor, and this is so helpful because of how I have gone into some courses before with one mindset and thinking that people are coming with one type of background. And then all of a sudden, I hear that they come with a completely different skill set and a different background, and it's like, "Oh, I need to be able to make sure that I am addressing these points. If not, then it's not going to be an optimal learning experience for this person." So for the Instructional Design Institute, this has happened before, where we do have people who want to be able to think more about this from a higher education perspective or a K through 12 perspective because my background is certainly within education. But by all means, of course, I'm going to be giving examples about working for corporate and freelance and other different forms of sectors as well too because I want to make sure that anyone who signs up for the course still feels like I am speaking to them and I'm not just glossing over that fact altogether. The next principle is readiness. Readiness goes hand in hand with relevancy. So when you're thinking about your learning experiences and when these people are coming in and looking at your designs with everything, is this going to serve them inside of the real world?
Now, this can be tricky depending upon your subject matter and what is it exactly you are designing around, but at the end of the day, especially for adults, is that they do not want to learn about theory after theory and process after process. They have to have more concrete, practical examples of, "Yes, this is a theory, but here's how you actually use it inside of the real world." That's what they really want to know about. And I think any instructional designer
If you ask someone about the ADDIE process, we in instructional design will explain ADDIE. Then, what usually follows is an explanation of how people use ADDIE in the real world. You can read an entire textbook on ADDIE. I have one on my shelf that I've read, and I thought, "Okay, this is an interesting perspective. I'm not sure how much of this is applicable to the real world, but I'm going to give this a chance." Certainly, this is very common within Learning and Development. So, whatever you are designing inside of your learning experience, you should really be emphasizing examples and instances, talking more about how this will serve learners on the job, how it will aid them from a professional development perspective, and how it might benefit them years down the line, especially if we're talking about traditional college-age students and their academic journey. It needs to be applicable to the real world.
The fourth principle is self-concept. By self-concept, I mean giving students and learners more autonomy, flexibility, and freedom when choosing how they want to learn. We often overlook this principle. If we have an end destination, there are multiple ways to get there. It's not just saying that the only way to travel is by car. Can't we also use planes, trains, or boats? There are other ways to reach an end destination, and the same goes for a learning experience.
For example, I noticed that when I start off my courses, I use the typical introduction discussion posts. I want people to introduce themselves to one another, especially since it's usually within a cohort, and these people will be working together for the next few weeks. I once heard from a student who mentioned she has done the same discussion post countless times. This made me realize that every cohort in the program already knows each other. So, I thought, why not change this up a bit? Students could either do the introduction post or, if they chose, introduce themselves via a video, mentioning something they haven't shared before, like a fun fact. As soon as I made this change, I saw many students post videos instead of the typical discussion board. It was different, more personal, and people seemed more engaged. And of course, it was optional. The more options, flexibility, and autonomy, the better the experience.
Now, think about learning activities, assessments, and content. There isn't just one way for learners to submit something or learn from something. For many courses I've taken as a student, I had to buy the textbook and wait for it to be shipped to me. The professor would then instruct us to read a specific chapter or page. But nowadays, not every method is buying a physical copy of a book. So, in my courses, I changed this up. If students wanted to read a physical book, view an e-book, listen to a podcast, attend a webinar, or participate in a workshop, I provided all these options. The feedback from students was positive. Most adults listen to podcasts nowadays, so why wouldn't we incorporate that into our learning experiences? You can do this for your courses and trainings by providing alternatives and more options. My favorite example of this, which you can Google, you can find it, and it really does blow my mind. Being able to see this is that there was one doctoral student who decided to rap his entire dissertation. As many of you know who have written your own dissertations before, these things are behemoths; they are huge. This individual made a rap song, and you can watch it on YouTube; it's amazing. So instead of submitting the typical type of dissertation and defending in the normal way, he did this in his style. And, of course, people loved it because it was so different. Also, hats off to this person because trying to create some rhymes with the different types of vocabulary that he used was like, "Whoa, that's next level." So anyway, different ways of being able to do this is going to be awesome for your learners.
The fifth principle is problem-centric. We know from research that when you give adults a real-world problem and you ask them to solve it, they are far more likely to be engaged with this and want to participate. Something that goes hand-in-hand with this is that we cannot just provide content inside of a learning experience. I know that you know this because you listen to this show, and you have heard me rant about this before. But if there's going to be an online learning experience and all that you do is just hit learners over the head with content after content, and then there's no action items or follow-ups or breaks or anything of the sort to give people some time to practice, then it's really all going to be for nothing. They're not going to retain something if you just lecture a person for hours; it's not going to work. If you think back to your college days and remember the last time you attended a lecture and it was two hours of one person in front of a classroom just speaking at you, how much did you actually remember? Probably not that much. So, this is the same when it comes to learning experiences. I said online a second ago, but this is by far in-person, hybrid, online – this is everything. The way that you conduct different forms of learning experiences should have a type of split where the majority of the work is hands-on, involved, and full of actions and tasks. And then, of course, there is the portion where it is more exploratory in nature – lecture-based, or content purposes of videos, recordings, webinars, podcasts, readings, whatever it is. For my types of learning experiences, I like to do a 70-30 split. 70% of the time, that's when the activities and the assessments are happening; that's when there is action; that's when active learning is really taking place. And then, for 30% of the time, that's when it's more about the exploratory nature section – the readings, the videos, the podcasts, everything of that type of sort. It's not always perfect; it's not always going to be a 70-30 split, but I really aim to be able to have that take place. Especially nowadays, where people don't get that, and it's usually, "Here's your hour-long video; go do a multiple-choice question at the end," and you're like, "Yeah, that's great." Like, that's not going to help me. So that is going to be something that you can focus on: putting more activities, more assessment, more hands-on, practical types of guidance, and a little bit less of the lecture-based material. Still important, but you need to factor in that consideration.
Our sixth and final principle is intrinsic motivation. This comes from the work of Dr. Carol Dweck from her research out of Stanford, which is talking about the growth mindset idea. The more and more you believe in yourself and your abilities, the more you are able to find that motivation and think about your goals and monitor your own progress. That growth and realization that it's possible to do, it's not that far away. So, trying to instill that into our participants is crucial. The more momentum that we can allow them to build up, the more they're going to be successful, and that's just science.
Now, why is a growth mindset so important for courses and trainings? Think about all the different types of things you have had to go through as an employee, and you just didn't finish them. Or let's say you're a self-directed learner and you have signed up for course after course, or you have taken MOOC after MOOC on edX or any other different form of learning platforms, and you never finish them. How many books are on your bookshelf where you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to finish that someday"? Probably quite a bit. I am, by all means, guilty of that. But when you realize the end goal in mind and what you're trying to do, and you're seeing and monitoring your own growth and your own progress by taking step by step inside of the learning experience, well, that's huge. Because that's going to build up that self-efficacy, that momentum, that self-confidence, and it's going to want to make you actually finish, which is a crucial component when it comes to learning experiences.
But what do we do for learning experience to be able to support people? We can have a variety of things: making sure that we are doing check-ins with our students and learners. We can have the opportunity to provide feedback and praise, or perhaps for critiquing, room for improvement. We can have different forms of weekly types of live sessions or for weekly check-ins or anything else of a sort to get a feel, to get a sense about how things are going. Are people still feeling motivated? Do they feel like they're lost and confused? Can we help them in a different type of way? This is why, by the way, I love to do at least once a week types of workshops and check-ins with my students for my courses. Because sure enough, I might have one sense, and then from actually talking with students, I'm like, "Oh, nope, they need more support. I need to do more information. I need to provide more guidance to help them with everything." And sometimes, you have an idea about this, and other times you don't. You simply just don't always know how things are going to go. So being able to make sure that you can think about how you can actually support your students and your learners, that is going to feed into intrinsic motivation once again. It's going to motivate people more to want to see everything through and make them realize that they can visualize hitting their goals, and they're not that far away. It just takes a bit more coaching, guidance, and support, and that's what's really going to help them out.
Well, learners, I think that I've talked at least long enough about andragogy. I can go on about this all day, every day. It's something that is so near and dear to my heart. It baffles me that we don't take into consideration many of these principles when we design learning experiences, and we need to do more. We need to get better at trying to do these things. Because when you do, this is the biggest thing: when you do these things, and you do them right, and you do things well, the results are fantastic. It is night and day difference compared to doing the typical types of things, winging it, not really using learning sciences or best practices, or whatever. Obviously, you're not going to do that. You know what to do now. But you're going to encounter some different forms of trainings and courses and whatnot that you need to take for your job, for school, or for whatever requirements, and you're going to notice and be like, "Wow, why didn't you ask me about this? Why didn't we talk about X? Why can't I have the option to do Y?" And if you don't, well, then most likely andragogy is not considered as a part of the overall design. If you want to take a deeper dive into andragogy with me, this is actually one of the first parts of the Instructional Design Institute. In week one, we cover analysis, and we cover andragogy at the same time. They 100% go hand-in-hand because, as you can tell, there's quite a bit of research that's involved there. So if that sounds interesting to you and you want to learn more, once again, December 11th is when the next cohort does start. Be sure to apply today, and I will be reaching back out to you if everything looks great from there.
And folks, a tremendous thank you to you for listening, for being with me on this journey. Some of you have been with me on this journey since 2020, and you have never left, which is absolutely insane that you are still listening to me all these years later. But I am so thrilled. I am so thankful. And I love being able to hear more from you about what you want to hear next on the show. So if you have not yet already done so, connect with me on LinkedIn and tell me about what exactly you are currently going through. What are you struggling with? Give me more podcast ideas. I can talk all day, every day. I think you know that at this point in time. As long as you give me some guidance about what path you want me to go down to be able to share with you, I am more than happy. I am an open book when it comes to helping you out along your instructional design journey. As always, leave this podcast a five-star review wherever you are listening. A bunch of you started submitting Apple podcast reviews lately. Thank you once again; I really, really appreciate it. I read every single one of your reviews. If you have not yet already done so, of course, be sure to leave a review today. The SME course starts October 30th; that's not that far away. We're approaching that very soon. If you have not yet done so, be sure to check that out. And of course, if you have any questions about that course in any way, shape, or form, please feel free to reach out to me. You can always contact me, like I said, on LinkedIn or via email at luke@drlukehobson.com
I'll talk to you next time. [Music]
