I am ridiculously excited to share with you today’s episode with my new friend, Ali Siddiqui. This episode has it all! We talked about his transition from being a chemistry teacher to being an award-winning instructional designer and he’s worked on projects for ASU, NASA, and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. We also talked about everything you need to know about project-based learning and how to apply this strategy to your courses and trainings. We also talked about finding the right job opportunity, universal design for learning, and more. Once again, I am ecstatic for you to listen to this one.
What we talked about:
Transitioning from Chemistry Teacher to Instructional Designer
Defining Project-based Learning (PBL)
Applying Understanding by Design (UBD)
Discussing Favorite Examples of PBL
Avoiding Common Mistakes in PBL
Collecting Feedback from Students
Thinking About the Instructor’s Perspective
Finding the Right Job Opportunity
Learning About Universal Design for Learning (UDL)
Follow Ali:
To learn more about myself and show:
Want to take your higher education instructional design skills to the next level? Check out Instructional Design Institute.
Recording a podcast or conducting interviews online? Check out SquadCast.
Do you want to become a corporate instructional designer? Check out Idol Courses Academy!
Transcript
Luke Hobson 00:03
Hey folks, and welcome on into another episode. I'm Dr. Luke Hobson. I'm an instructional designer at MIT. I'm also an online instructor, blogger podcaster. YouTuber, and the founder of instructional design Institute. My purpose is to help you make the online learning experience come alive for you and for your students. And I ridiculously excited to share with you today's episode of my new friend all Ali Siddiqui. This episode has it all. We talked about his transition from being a chemistry teacher to being an award winning instructional designer. And he's worked on projects for ASU, NASA, and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, His story is just awesome. And I cannot wait for you to hear about it. But that's not even like the main part of the show. The main part of the show is that we talked about everything in regards to project based learning, and how to apply this learning strategy to your courses and to your trainings to make them incredibly effective, fun and engaging for your learners. We also talked about finding the right job opportunity, Universal Design for Learning and many, many more topics. So once again, I am so ridiculously excited for you to hear this one because this episode just it has it all like it really does it, this is gonna be a great one. But before you can even listen to the show, I have to tell you a funny story about all of this. So I'll we unintentionally threw me a curveball for our 20th episode. And by the way, you know, shout out to us, we made it to 20 episodes. So thank you for following along, whether you're someone who is brand new to the show, this is the first episode you've listened into. Or perhaps you've been with me since day one. So once again, shout out to us. And thank you for following along with me in this really crazy and interesting journey by going back to the story. So Ali and I, we were talking and at the beginning of every episode, I usually chat with the podcast guests about whatever just to make them feel more comfortable with being on the podcast with being recorded, perhaps they're not used to this, then of course, I want them to get to know me a little bit more, because I definitely have my own type of unique and quirky personality. So usually we shoot the breeze at the beginning of every single episode. But with this one, it was different. And I don't know why. But for some reason, I just instinctively push the record button from the very beginning from the get go. And I'm so glad I did that. Because Ali and I like we essentially went right into podcast mode within three seconds. And you know, obviously, no script, nothing planned, you know, we're just kind of talking and shooting the breeze. But we talked about a lot of important topics within instructional design, our experiences, our journeys, the first projects that we worked on, and it kind of was like a virtual coffee chat, if you will. And I'm trying to figure out what to do with this, because this is like an hour long content that really doesn't have a, you know, like a proper flow, if you will. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with this one. But I think it'd be really cool for you to be a fly on the wall, just kind of listen into the conversation, because just from us chatting, there was a lot of really good pieces of wisdom and golden nuggets that I'm sure you can take away from it, and apply it into your life or into your classes or whatever else that you want to do. So maybe we're going to get a bonus episode, maybe I'll put it at the end of this later on after I do some editing because of delay and feedback and whatnot. So I'm gonna figure it out. But that's gonna be really cool. We're gonna have that for the very first time. And I just thought that was so neat. But that all happened. And it was just completely spontaneous and unplanned. But it was awesome. It was a really, really good chat. And last piece of news before we get on into the show is that I made a new Facebook group, just for all of us to connect. I love the fact that you've been connecting with me via LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, email, but of course, I want you folks to be able to connect with one another. It's awesome. you're chatting with me, don't get me wrong. But of course I love the idea of a community of learning nerds coming together. So if you go down into the show notes and click on the Facebook link that's gonna bring you into a group called instructional design Institute community. This way I can share with you things like job postings, articles, podcasts, blogs, latest updates and courses from the Institute and just everything else. So click that link join today. I can't wait to see you inside of there. Okay, folks, I'm not going to delay this any longer. Here is the one and only Ollie sidiki. Oh, welcome
04:56
to the podcast. Great to be here. Super excited. Talk about this.
Luke Hobson 05:00
Well, now that we've been talking about this for officially 55 minutes at the time of finally starting the real recording, I mean, the thing is, is that as soon as we started talking, you just clearly have so much of a passion for what you do what you're talking about. And as somebody who is also very loud and passionate about instructional design, I am so happy that you're on this show. And we get to talk about project based learning, which is awesome. It's such a relevant topic for today, can you please give the folks at home just a bit more and talk about yourself the way you do and everything of a sort for your one introduction,
05:40
for sure. And I'm super glad to be on here. And talking about project based learning is something very near and dear to my heart, especially as someone who has been an instructional designer for quite some time. So just a little bit about me. I used to be a former high school chemistry and physics instructor, and then was an instructional designer working at a design firm called Smart Sparrow. And then at that time, got to work with a lot of corporate clients, nonprofit organizations and universities to develop online learnings and then transition to a company called flat Dippy University, which helped nonprofit leaders scale their organizations across the globe, and now serve as a senior instructional designer at Coursera. So, yeah, a lot of different sort of avenues and ways to practice structural design, but super glad to be on here and share any little things that I've learned.
Luke Hobson 06:38
You know, one thing that we didn't even talk about for that entire 55 minute period, before we got into everything is the fact that transitioning from being a teacher to an instructional designer right now is huge. That is one of the biggest things possible. And so many folks are going down these different rabbit holes, unfortunately, where sometimes it might, you know, it's not necessarily the best way to go down, like trying to learn about just everything of a tool where you know, there's a whole bunch of variety of different things. I know, I wasn't planning on actually asking you about this. But now since you said it, I was like, Oh, I really want to ask you about this. What was the defining moment where you're like, I'm going to transition and become an ID and what little steps along the way? Did you take that actually make that happen? Yeah, that's
07:22
a really good question. And I had a lot of people ask me the same thing on different channels like LinkedIn and things like that. For me, the big reason for the transition was, you know, I was teaching at a high school, and I had done Teach for America before. And I wanted to kind of give people who may not have access to a high quality education, something that would help them kind of change the trajectory of their life. And so I could do that in the classroom. But I felt like a better way, or another way that I could do that is by doing in a much more scalable way. And that would lead me to online learning where you can create a course that's the end use by not only like hundreds and you know, 1000s of different learners around the world, but also give people who may not have access to getting to like a school or things like that, the kind of education that they would want. Now, that was an idea and kind of a personal mission that I had to kind of make education more equitable and accessible. However, there was a skills gap, right. So you know, people, there are a lot of teachers who are masters at what they do in the classroom. I wasn't one of those that was the master at what I did. But I had some foundational skills there. But there was some learning that I had to do with how do you take a great in person experience and, you know, translate it into something that is online? And so some of the things that I did in that research phase between, you know, being a teacher and being the shutter designer, was like, learning about just researching other products, like, how are people teaching online? What do you know, these online programs look like? You know, what do I like about a particular MOOC that I saw, What don't I like, what could be better and what could not, as well as learning small things here and there, like HTML or CSS, I remember taking a small Code Academy course on there, and just being ready to be like, I have a badge in CSS, y'all, so I'm ready for this job. But like, um, but there's, there's some things there, but I think it's a lot of things you learn on the job, but really, doing your research beforehand and just seeing, you know, not only what will instruction designer do but thinking about whether or not that's kind of the avenue you want to go into the pros and cons. You know, some people really appreciate that one on one experience, and you see the reactions of the learners as they kind of do something. And then there's, um, you know, instrument design where You're thinking maybe more strategically. And so maybe that's something that you want to think more about, as you kind of navigate that space between the two.
Luke Hobson 10:06
It's so interesting that there are so many similarities with teaching, because of course, you are working in your building towards creating this new knowledge. But at the same time, as an instructional designer, it is certainly more on the back end of things where it's like, you are not now the person who's in front of the class and trying to do this, now you're trying to think more of like, if I am not physically there, from behind the scenes, does this make an amazing learning experience for what I'm trying to create inside of this little bubble? It's really different, but it's similar. So it's so fascinating to hear that that's the way that the world has gone from transitioning of having this group where I was reading an article the other day that talked about how one out of every five teachers in 2021 is projected to try to go into a new field. And for the most part, from what I've been seeing Facebook, LinkedIn and talking to people, I firmly believe that's going to be like, all instructional design is where I think we were gonna go. Mm hmm.
11:04
Yeah, and I can totally see that with the way that things are changing. And everyone moving into online learning. There's, it's a, it's a growing fields, and a lot of things are changing. In the end, I think the field needs a lot of people that come from an education sort of background. Because at the end of the day, you know, at the core of creating a great learning experience is understanding the pedagogical principles that underlie that experience, right. And I think teachers and people, those that have a background in education, in some way, shape or form, you know, can tap into that, and some of these techniques that I remember practicing in the classroom like differentiation, thinking about how does that apply in something that's online? And so I was lucky to work at a company that encouraged that sort of thinking of what are some of the best practices that happened in the classroom? And not just how do you translate them online? But how do you create like a digital first experience that gets at the same sort of goal? That's really interesting to think about.
Luke Hobson 12:09
And one of the techniques to but I know teachers know how to do is project based learning, but I don't think that they have thought about it in the same capacity. Like with that terminology, that's what I keep on encountering is talking with people is that they always make it so broad, where there's like, Oh, I taught courses and design curriculum. So then you're like, but how, show me how it aligns, what did you actually do, and then that's when you get into it. And this is like, oh, you're having different forms of elements with scenario based learning, gamification, project based learning. So project based learning is one that I definitely want us to cover. And to go through with this extensively, because it is so useful. It's so relevant nowadays, with everything for online learning. So I would love just to hear more from your perspective about all of this and to dive right in. So let's just start kind of from the beginning of this one, can you give the folks at home just a broad, general definition of project based learning?
13:07
Yeah, for sure. So project based learning is creating an end assessment, that is a project that students can complete, that is directly tied to the learning objectives that you set out to teach. So in project based learning, you essentially want students to demonstrate mastery of the learning objectives through completing a project. And so this project, what we're really trying to do is get students as close as possible to authentically demonstrating that they know this learning objective and proving that they could do whatever skill you're trying to teach them on their own, or in the real world. So I see it personally as very attached to the idea of authentic assessment, you know, and also, it's very much tied to the idea, or the higher levels of Bloom's taxonomy, the difference between project based learning and using that instead of like, regular or typical assessments that we see like in and the course quiz or something, is that really, you're trying to get students to create, evaluate, synthesize their learning. And that sort of higher order thinking has been shown to kind of increase student retention of the information and kind of just really help drive home some of those key learning objectives.
Luke Hobson 14:31
Know when you're talking about project based learning for someone for the very first time, what type of like a common example would you give to them to allow them to try to visualize that inside of their heads as you're talking about it?
14:43
Yeah. So project based learning is, if I was to give an example, it might be something like, if you were trying to teach elements of creating a personal narrative for or you know, trying to creating a creating a narrative around your nonprofit organization, then up projects that you might use to see whether or not learners can pitch their nonprofit organization is to actually create or develop a an elevator pitch. You know, that might be a simple way of kind of seeing a project based learning example and action. It's very small, not very complicated. But the key parts of that story that you're trying to teach, such as introduction, what was the challenge that you tried to overcome? What's special about your nonprofit? And what is the action item that you want people to do? those elements, if you really understand how to create those, that you should be able to create your own elevator pitch. And so that's something that I did at Plan B University, which was, you know, which was designed or an organization that was founded on the idea of helping nonprofit organizations scale. So, you know, you could have just asked students and learners Tell me what are the five parts of an elevator pitch. And that's a typical assessment. And it's just getting you to recall, do they remember the facts. But in a project based learning, you're creating something, you're demonstrating your knowledge by putting something together on your own. And that's why we would have students actually deliver their elevator pitch.
Luke Hobson 16:16
And that makes total sense. it aligns, it's appropriate for what you what you want students to be able to accomplish and see and have them evaluate themselves and know what they're doing is actually on the right track. I mean, my common example that I always give to folks is thinking about something for like trying to design your own website, there is no way that you're just going to go in and try to have like a quiz or something at the end or a test just to say like, you know, tell me about how you design a website. It's like, well, this website has so many different key parts and features, and you need to be able to have them go and build all these little steps along the way, and to be able to provide feedback and guidance so that that way they know that like they're on track, I can't imagine us being like, hey, go build a website, well, then we'll talk about it later. And I'll grade you like, it's not works.
17:02
Right? Exactly. If I was like working with instructional designers, it might be okay. Instead of me just teaching you the different aspects or elements of using rise, create a project on rise. And so kind of having them demonstrate, you know, all those different things that you've taught in action, having them kind of prove that they know it through doing it themselves. And that's incredibly powerful. Because at the end of the day, you should always like, ask yourself, what do I want students to walk away from this experience? Knowing or being able to do? And project based learning really helps find out whether or not they can do that thing?
Luke Hobson 17:42
Sure, does? it? Sure does. Is that why can we talked a lot, we talked about several different techniques before jumping on the phone call. But as far as for like, your favorite technique, is that why project based learning is like one of your favorites? Definitely,
17:57
um, you know, a big part of how I design learning experiences is kind of using the UBD template or Understanding by Design template. And, you know, one of the things I like most about that is the idea of enduring understandings. Like, if there's just one or a couple of core things you want people to walk away, knowing or being able to do, what would that be? And, you know, when I really think about what would prove that, to me, it would be project based learning, and that's what I like about it, I think, you know, a lot of times, we try to create engaging experiences, but project based learning, you know, what it really does, it also makes the assessment something that's more enjoyable as well. You know, students aren't just taking a quiz, they're doing something, they're showing the biggest thing. And a lot of times, it allows them to express their creativity, and bring in other things that they've learned into the project itself. That's what in when I was back, when I was teaching in high school, it was a very common thing for teachers at a particular grade level to collaborate like the math teacher, the science teacher and English teacher to collaborate together to design a project based learning sort of curriculum, because, you know, it really allows students to tap into a lot more than just the core content. And so it creates an opportunity for some very creative thinking. And just very engaging, and I've found that in person through personal experience, as students enjoy that a lot.
Luke Hobson 19:29
Those are always my favorite courses, to be honest, like when I was going to school, it was always in a course at the time whenever you're giving like the the final rubric and like the guideline sheet, and they give it to you saying like, you're going to do this final project, you're like, I'm gonna do this final project. Are you kidding? But then afterwards, now that I'm older, and I think back to all the courses I took, I was like, those are the courses I still remember. It was. It was doing project based learning. I just didn't know what the terminology was, but to me, it was extremely incredibly effective.
20:00
Right. And remember practicing a lot of that, as well, in the classroom. You know, even as a chemistry teacher, it's like, if we had, we had this unit on forensics, and, you know, every team had to kind of analyze a sample of like white powder, find out what it was, there was a whole court case involved, you know, like, and so kind of getting people involved in like doing something with the information that they've learned, is just a very powerful and engaging way of of being looping people in, but it comes with its own challenges as well. You know, once you open things up to being a lot more creative, you know, you start to introduce some complexity there, with how do I assess this? What other do I have? And how much how much guardrails do I put around this? You know, and so, for people who perhaps are new to using project based learning in the online setting, they might wonder whether or not what this is something they can do, or whether it's something that's too complex. And I think that's something that is worth diving into as well.
Luke Hobson 21:03
So let's totally dive into that one. So what common mistakes do you actually see when folks are like just trying to figure out project based learning for the first time? And how can they avoid these traps and pitfalls?
21:17
I think there are two really common mistakes. Number one is a very large scope. You know, if you are trying to cover every learning objective that you have taught in a course, in one project, you might end up with something that is very massive, and that might make you want to create, and we were talking about this before, which is gigantic rubrics and rubrics that have tons and tons of different criteria. And I think the important thing is, when you think about project based learning, let's start with like the enduring understanding what do you want people to walk away with? What's the most essential sort of goal or outcome or learning objectives that you think that, you know, this project based learning, assessment would be good for? and hone in on that, and come up with the idea from there? I think that's one of the biggest pitfalls is just having too large of a scope. And secondly, I think another pitfall is people getting dissuade from using project based learning, because it's too complex, they think they didn't need a lot of different technological tools, or you need a whole simulation, or, you know, it just it just gets, you know, it can really just get very complex very easily, if you allow it to. And I think, you know, a good thing to think about there is what sort of in what sort of ways can I use the tools that I already have to make project based learning happen. And you'd be surprised, maybe what you need is, you know, some, like access to a jam board, or a mural board, a discussion board. And some, you know, like, other ways for students to communicate with one another, and you have the groundings for a great project based learning experience. So those are two big things, I would say, are the biggest challenges for people who are new to project based learning online, to larger scope, and to choose a worry or anxiety about incorporating a lot of different tools.
Luke Hobson 23:30
And I've absolutely witnessed both firsthand that I've seen people freak out thinking that they don't know how to use this tool. And then when they Google project based learning, they see this amazing, massive portfolio that has all these crazy games and simulations. And always everything's and this is like, Whoa, like you don't, you don't need to do that. Like there, there are easier ways within your own platform that you can be able to become creative and then embed different things. It's like you don't have to go down this crazy rabbit hole. And for the folks at home, but we were talking about before we got on this call is that I have a friend right now who's working on a course. And the rubric for that course has 45 rows and columns. And he freaked out looking at this rubric saying, What What am I doing? Like, I don't know what to do with this. There's no way on Earth, I can actually use this in a real course. But I have seen that many times as soon as someone is talking about project based learning. What ends up happening is you have these monstrous size rubrics because the person who you're either working with like for the SMI or the professor, whoever it is, or perhaps you are just guilty of it yourself or like there are all these different elements. How do I make sure I'm appropriately grading everything that I'm not just losing track of different things as we're progressing throughout the course. Do you have any tips on how to avoid making these Goliath size rubrics for the final submission?
24:56
Yeah, and I think a big thing over there is to really Go back to your course outline and your course objectives, or even down to your lesson objectives and figure out, okay, you know, what are the key things that I want people to take away from this experience and create rows or criteria in your rubric that aligned to your learning objectives, and try not to get so bogged down by things that may not be core to the learning experience? I think that's critical. I think another key thing to keep in mind is, when you're assessing a project, that is, you know, that does use project based learning, be able to differentiate between what parts are kind of the connecting glue that makes something a project, and what part is the actual learning outcome. And, you know, the color scheme that you use on a jam board or something that might not be, you know, a key part of the learning, you know, how beautiful it is, and things like that, like, you know, those might be great to have, but they're not essential to the learning experience. And I think that's, that's key is to really know, what do you want people to get out of it. And that can be a really helpful way in trying to slice through some unnecessary parts of a rubric.
Luke Hobson 26:20
Now going and building off of that, in your opinion, do you find that the length of time is like a certain period of time, and your head is one more effective compared to another because I think that's why that massive, huge rubric came into play is that this was a super long course. So because of that one, they built in however many millions of milestones along the way, and then eventually, it led to that monstrous final at the end. So is there a length of time that in your opinion, makes sense to do for short term versus longer?
26:56
Yeah, I think, you know, depending on how you break down your course, if you're breaking it down into units, I would kind of do it in that sort of way. You know, to think that a project based learning sort of assessment can happen only at the end of the course, may make it much more difficult to actually come up with a project that's going to assess every single thing in that course. Whereas in a unit, it might be easier. And keep in mind that some topics are lend themselves better to being project based learning, sort of assessments, and some may not be. So don't feel like you have to use this technique. At every, in any given moment. Think about whether or not it is something that, you know, students can show their knowledge up through creating a project. That's what I would say. And again, it goes to the idea of like, really decreasing the scope of what you're assessing in that project.
Luke Hobson 27:55
I'm so glad you said that too. Because that is something that people will do is that they're like, Oh, this will fit in every mold. And it's like, No, no, it's just like being an instructional designer, where you think about time, energy, resources, budget, human power, like, you need to take these kiter consideration everything to determine about how you're actually going to design the cores, what you're able to do at a time for, like, so many different factors really matter. In order for you to really say like, oh, we're gonna make this incredible thing versus just like, Oh, this is gonna be short and sweet to the point because that's all we got. So no, I'm so glad you said that there is not a one size fits all model, just like with our own ID models. But you can use a variety of things of Addie agile, sand backwards design, and still come to an amazing learning experience at the end of the day. That's right. So if, for instance, let's say that we are in project based learning, we're in the weeds here, we love it, we're working with it, how can we take that up to the next level? As far as we're incorporating, like other learning strategies? What combination, in your opinion could work to make something like as cool as it can possibly be? If we're thinking about it like that?
29:10
Okay, so I think, and this goes back to kind of what you mentioned earlier about scope, and how do you make sure these things don't get so massive? One technique that pairs very well with project based learning is case studies or scenario based learning. And the reason is, because, you know, for example, if you are teaching a course on project management, and the project may very well be work with your stakeholders to create a project plan, and create a timeline and things like that. Now, here's the thing, if we're talking about authentic assessment, is creating a project plan, really an authentic way of assessing whether or not they'd be able to manage a project? Because you might say yeah, While they're getting a project plan, they can manage the project. But managing a project is more than just creating the plan, it's actually seeing it through different phases. Now, you could have the project be created project plan, but you could pair it with scenario based learning, so that you can ask students, what would you do? Or, you know, what would happen if XYZ happened down the line? How would you react to that? Or company x? Has this happened to their project plan? How would you respond. So by pairing it with situation or scenario based learning examples or case studies, you're able to give a more comprehensive sort of assessment. And it prevents you from having to create a project that expands across all different parts of the, you know, project management lifecycle. And so that's one that I would highly recommend using, and considering to use, while working on project based learning sort of approaches,
Luke Hobson 31:04
I'm going to get dizzy, because I'm nodding so much as you're talking, just FYI, if you see me just like pass out randomly, it's because I'm agreeing with you literally the whole time. We've been talking, because scenario based learning that is like near and dear to my heart that that is like my favorite learning strategy that I've been using for so many years. And one thing that I never gonna get a kick out of Sega share with you is that we designed this course, that was all about essentially leading innovation, how do you actually be able to go in and rapidly developed some type of a product within an organization. And we did the combination, project based learning scenario based learning literally what you just said, and made it all together. But what was the coolest thing is that what I ended up putting into there actually happened in real life. And that wasn't planned, it was like, Oh, I think this could be like an actual real hypothetical situation, was anticipating that it was going to really happen, where I asked the learners in this case, to imagine themselves being an engineer working in a research and development lab. And because of everything that happened with the pandemic, the organization is basically giving you the green light, to test out everything, every business model, every idea to basically see whatever is going to work. And then for you to be able to create it, validate it and see it all the way until launch, then come to find out, of course, everything that happened with the pandemic, as every single organization out there has been trying new things from different ways of membership models, subscription based things from doordash, to Disney plus to Hulu to yo you know, you name it. But one in particular actually happened with a research lab for Coca Cola, where, because of the pandemic, there are no more live events. And almost all of Coca Cola is revenue comes from live events. So because of that, the r&d lab was telling the engineers try whatever, just give it a shot, be as innovative as possible, and try to make something that was eventually turned into a profit. And here's my scenario was with this project that is like literally mapping out everything in real life. And I was reading an article about it where I was like, hey, that really happened. He was like, and that's what these students went through to prepare for the real world. And that was just like, fireworks moment of like, wow, we did it.
33:26
Yeah, and having people thinking creatively in that sort of way is at the core of what this is all about. Right? I mean, if you're able to have them do that, then you know that you are kind of pushing them farther than a regular assessment would.
Luke Hobson 33:41
Oh, by far, what is your favorite example of project based learning? I know you have a lot. What is your favorite one? If you had to pick one?
33:48
Oh, that's very difficult to choose. If I was to pick my favorite example. I mean, I think one of the ones that was very interesting was a simulated experience. Now this one is not very possible. It's not perhaps some that everyone could kind of just pick up in and use. But my favorite one was working with NASA to create a unit on human anatomy and physiology. And so I did this at a company called Smart Sparrow. And essentially, as a software designer, what I was handed was three learning objectives. It was like something around like teaching, it's some aspect of like the skeletal system, the muscular system and one other like human body system or something like that. And I had to design a unit around this topic of human anatomy and physiology. And so what I did together with the team at smart Sparrow was create a project, an online project where students would essentially create, get a team of four astronauts from the surface of Earth, to Mars and back. And it's a it was a very basic, you could call it simulation. But essentially what it was was teaching students how to counteract the effects of microgravity in space through adjusting something as simple as diet plans and exercise plans. And so to learn how to counteract the effect of microgravity on the bones, they had to learn about the skeletal system, and what microgravity was doing to, you know, astronauts, his bones, and then they learned how to contract that through diet and exercise. And the same thing with the muscular system and cardiovascular system. And so, that was my favorite example of project based learning, not because it was very complex, but what we did was designed a series of 13 mini lessons, each, which taught students one small thing that could help them with this larger project, or this simulation or getting this thing done. And I think that's a really important framework to think about when you think about designing your project based learning. Because if you're following backwards design, you're really thinking about what do I want to teach? What is my assessment or like this end goal or this project, or what I want people to be able to do, and then constructing your learning experiences from there. And so this was a really good example of that, which where we had this idea of this assessment of what we wanted students to learn about these different human body systems, and then developing all of our little mini lessons that would help them do that final project. And the great thing about it is that really holds you to it. Because if you don't create your lessons such that students can do the project, well, then, you know, the whole thing kind of falls apart. And so you have to be very sure that you're setting students up for success. And so it was a very interesting sort of unit. And then we did surveys on it, it was rated like students is most engaging and exciting sort of unit in that course.
37:15
I think that was the most fun one to work on, for sure. Yeah. And there was a lot of trial and error, too.
Luke Hobson 37:22
I was just gonna say, and the beautiful thing is that you asked students about their thoughts around it. Did you like it was irrelevant? What do you think, you know, there, there seems to be this common. I don't know what to say about a different type of fear, or whether there's some apprehension around, like, asking students around how things went? What was your experience like? And that has been the most valuable thing I've learned about over my trial and error periods over the years is just talk to the students and say, like, hey, was this scenario relevant to you? Did this project actually help you in the real world, and perhaps you already have things planned out as far as for immediately talking to them at the end of the course, at the end of the week, you know, like, you can go and dive into that level of detail. Or you can do something like Kirkpatrick model, where you're asking them more about months down the road and trying to reevaluate and assess. And then when you get to hear those testimonials that like it clicked, it worked. I still remember that to this day, it was so helpful to me, that is when as an ID, you're like I did it. It works.
38:30
Exactly, yeah. And I think, you know, checking in on students, as you, as you mentioned, is, is really key. With every new part that you kind of introduce to students that will help them with the project, you always want to kind of do a formative assessment and find out Alright, well, did they, you know, you want to check in and see, you know, did they understand that? And, you know, would they be able to, perhaps use it in the project, you don't want to wait till the very end, and then see the project once and not provide any feedback along the way. So feedback is not only important, you know, to ask along the way, but then also, of course, like as you finish the project and the whole experience, you always want to, you know, follow the Human Centered Design sort of cycle where you constantly iterate on your learning experiences, as you have students go through them. So yeah, super, super important. I'm glad that you brought that up.
Luke Hobson 39:26
Yeah, it's it's absolutely essential. And that's, that's something else too. But I think folks need to know about when they are designing project based learning within their courses. You also need to think back to of the instructor. So there was someone teaching this course that you're about to build, and you need to be able to provide for them an adequate amount of time in order for them to give this guidance and this feedback, integrate it to follow up, you know, rubric and everything else. Because if you just have something we're like you said, it's all at the end. Well, then no one's learning. No one's properly following steps. They're just never trying it themselves. They're learning Doing something that is their own form of learning and trying to get there. But if you have something where you're telling them in basically week one that like, Hey, get ready, this course is about this type of project. So mentally prepare for it, you're not starting it yet. And week one, but a week two, we're gonna do the first type of a milestone. And then you build it out as in like, there are many milestones along the way that build up to the final project. So if you have an eight week course, it would be something along the lines of like weeks, two, four, and seven. And then at the end, you have the final projects, you can give, you know, feedback along the way. But if you do it where every single week, there's a milestone, then there's no time for the instructor to give that guidance in that feedback. And then students are going to get frustrated, because you're building it where it's incrementally building off of one thing than another and another, but now there's none of that coaching or guidance. So now they're like, Hey, I hope I did milestone one, right. But now I'm on milestone four. And I'm just guessing.
41:00
Right. And especially when you think about it in the online sort of context, like if you're in the classroom, it's very easy for a student to ask for help, and then get that help very quickly. But in the online setting, it can cause a lot of frustration, if you know, students don't know what they're supposed to do next, what's going on. And if they don't have those benchmarks along the way. And so you can get a lot of negative feedback from students who are frustrated, like, I'm confused, I'm lost, I don't really know what to do next. There's, this course is not organized or something like that. So you really have to understand, you know, what, where students would need guidance, where they might need to be, you know, have like, check ins, and where you could establish some checkpoints, but also be able to balance that with still providing them the opportunity to be creative. So if you have like a project based learning, sort of task, which is like, perhaps, you know, as you mentioned before, maybe developing a website, like how prescriptive Do you want to be like, do you want them to use a particular layout? Like, maybe that's where you can give them some flexibility, but be explicit about it, say? And you will, you know, and you can try to use any layouts that you'd like, just so when they have to create one, they're not like, which layout do I use? Is it this one? Is it this one, etc. So understand, that students will want and can be creative. But keep that in mind when you construct your instructions. And put that together,
Luke Hobson 42:37
I've been to have them share that. I mean, like I told you, before, my backgrounds in graphic design, don't know how I got here, blessed I am here. But anyway, my backgrounds in graphic design, but that's what we did, we had project based learning where like, every single week, we built a part of a website. And then what we were able to do this was in person. So I'll get into how we can ship and online. But in person, we would go up to the front of a class for that week and say, This is the progress on my logo on my website, on my whatever. And then the people and the class then had to critique it right there on the spot. And then he you basically were imagining them as the clientele. And then you had to be able to figure out how to address their different points of critiquing that was really interesting started prepare you to say like, hey, as a web designer, guess what you're going to have clients. So you're going to have to be able to meet them where they are and address Why are doing a certain way that you're doing it. And you need to take that. And then you need to also put it online, whether it's a discussion board or a type of a peer reviewed graded activity where they can just share and say, here's what I got, what do you think, give me your feedback. That's just so crucial to hear not only the instructor feedback, but the peer to peer feedback so that that way they know they're on like the same playing field. And we're going to relate to that more on top of that, too, because it's their fellow peer. And, you know,
43:57
this is a really good point about getting that peer feedback in terms of how can one iterate on their projects. But I think, you know, that peer feedback element is also key for thinking about how to scale project based learning. So if you're working as a university instructor, it might be easy for you to actually grade 12 rubrics, maybe 100 rubrics or something. But now, if you're working at a corporation, where there's 1000 employees, or if you're working at a company that develops like MOOCs, or online courses for anyone around the world, you may no longer be able to actually use and greater rubric yourself. So, you know, in working at, you know, some organizations before one way that I've gotten around that was using sort of LMS is like edX to the have the peer review functionality that allows The project, whatever it is. And it could be a number of different file types, to be shared with someone else who is taking that course. And you can also construct a rubric for that other person. And they, your peers can grade your assignment. And so it might be a little bit challenging, if you only have one peer grade your assignment, your whole assignment comes from that one person. But in a lot of these sort of LMS, is you can set the number of graders. So having three usually gives you a good sense of how that project is, if your rubric is designed appropriately, and people can easily use it. So that's one way of taking something that's complex, and scalably, grading it, which is leveraging the power of the community and peers in the classroom there.
Luke Hobson 45:47
I've literally done that in my courses, even down to the number of reviewers of three. So I was smiling the whole time you said that? Well, it's like I have literally done that. And of course before in edX, by the way, so like you hit every, every single box. That's just, that's a super funny. So let's talk a little bit more about you've had a really interesting journey of how you've gotten to where you are today. And you've worked at some phenomenal organizations. And for many instructional designers right now, they're ever trying to break into the field for one potential new instructional designers, and others, just trying to figure out the right fit for them. They're doing a little bit of transitioning, and kind of like, you know, looking around, and you've worked for many famous and amazing organizations, you've talked about NASA, you've also worked for the Gates Foundation, as well. So, sir, what is the secret? How have you been able to work from the some of these amazing places and have these opportunities?
46:48
Yeah, I think a lot of it is, you know, there's two elements to everything. One is kind of leveraging the skills that you do have, but then also acknowledging that you're never going to be perfect or have all the skills, and there's some element of just being at the right place at the right time as well. And so for me, I think the thing that allowed me to work with these different sort of companies, has been honing in on what is it that I'm bringing to the table, that perhaps my peers are not, and this is very key for people who are coming from an education sort of background, whether they are teachers, or have worked in schools in some sort of way, which is really think about the education that you have received, and what you've learned in order to become a teacher. So those principles, those, you know, learning modalities and things that pedagogical best practices that, you know, can be very impactful in, you know, corporate settings, like the ones that I've worked in. And so that's kind of something that's allowed me to kind of work on some of these high profile client sort of, you know, projects, whether it's with NASA, or Arizona State University, or with the Gates Foundation. That's kind of my advice. Understand that there's a huge value in a background in education. And there are a lot of companies, organizations that really crave people with that kind of experience. So double down on that. And just know that that's very valuable.
Luke Hobson 48:35
Have you noticed some job postings actually call that out where they're saying they want teachers? That's been the new thing.
48:41
Yeah, really,
Luke Hobson 48:43
in some organizations say, Hey, we're hiring for instructional designers. But we are specifically looking for people who have worked in K through 12. I've seen that actually just like flat out on the job posting, and I'm sending this to all my teacher, friends and colleagues being like, they're literally looking for you, like, your background matches exactly what they want to do, because they also have partnered with other especially like OPM, where they're partnering with other universities or schools. So it's just like they are able to speak the language in their skill set just fits.
49:15
Yeah. And if you if you just think about it, some of the techniques are learning, and you're applying everyday as a teacher differentiation. You take that same sort of technique, that same idea of meeting each learner, kind of where they're at. You can apply that online. And it'll go by different sort of terms. You know, but like Universal Design for Learning in the cloud. There's a book by Novak that's UDL in the cloud. And essentially, it's like how do we take the same principles that we're using in the classroom, and then translate them online. And sometimes it takes a little bit of creativity of how it will work online. But that same core idea is just as useful online as it is in the classroom. So I can totally see why they are looking for teachers. And, yeah, I would definitely want to hire someone that has that sort of background. Knowledge.
Luke Hobson 50:12
I can't remember the episode number off the top of my head. So I was just looking for it. And I was just like, where is it episode number six, Dr. Novak and Tom tibideaux came on the podcast to talk about that exact book that you mentioned. I write I so this is why I was saying early on row is this like, we're kindred spirits, man, it was like you're, you're saying all the things that resonate with me to the core of being an ID here, including name dropping other folks who've been on the show. But I can't can't say enough good things about UDL in the cloud. That was the very first book I ever read about what it is that we do for a living. And because of that, that changed the way I design all my courses. And I still use those same teachings to this day, and sad that much of an impact on my life.
50:59
That is crazy. Other than literally, in, in my whole experience is something that I've never met anyone that has read that book. But it has also been so useful and helpful for me as well. I reference it like all the time, yeah, this is crazy. So Exactly. So just like that. And also like frameworks that you've used, like UBD, Understanding by Design, and, and you know, just like backwards design, you know, those sort of things key essential in being an instructional designer. So that would be my advice, really understand the value of the knowledge you're coming into the game with. And also, don't be afraid to learn these other skills that will make you a better instructional designer. And that's, you know, exploring the technological side, or the technology side. Don't be afraid of doing that. Because as teachers or people who are interested in learning, I read this quote recently, that was like, what makes a good learner or something, someone asked someone else, what makes a good learner, and someone was like, someone who's not afraid to look like a fool. And so there's just a sense of humility that you come into the game with of, I don't know this, but when I do, I can be quite dangerous. So I'm ready to give it a bit my best shot.
Luke Hobson 52:16
I love that. And that's how I've learned like everything I screw up, and I'm like, Ah, now I know what to do in the future.
52:23
Exactly. And it seems intimidating. When I first started, I didn't think I could do a lot of the technological things that I can do now. But it comes,
Luke Hobson 52:32
it comes. And the other thing too, which I know we've we've talked a little bit about is that if you are also able to learn a particular skill, and then just take that as far as you can with that one, that is going to be far more valuable and transferable to compare to any other type of skill, where if you're trying to be someone who is just like, I need to learn everything, it's like, No, no, no, you don't, you need to learn the fundamentals and become so good at them that you can then be able to project that I'm going to talk about it and then to design with that knowledge you just been learning about, and that is going to help you compared to just trying to learn literally everything under the sun.
53:07
That's right, you can have an incredibly effective learning experience that does not utilize like six different technologies, you know, different tools that can just be really well constructed. A very simple, but at the core of it, it's like, are students going to be learning this concept that you're trying to teach? And are they going to be engaged in that process? And to do that doesn't necessarily take the most complex tools out there. So yeah, like you mentioned, if you know, one tool, learn it well. And just make sure that the experiences that you're creating, really meet the needs of your learner, and apply a Human Centered Design, or learner centered design sort of process really helps with that. So I would recommend that as well.
Luke Hobson 53:57
I love it. That was amazing. Well, you know what I was gonna say, I want to go into more things. But I will literally talk to you all night, there needs to be a cutoff point at some point in time. So I'm going to do some editing at the beginning here and try to try to weave in some of the other quotes that you've you dropped a few knowledge bombs early on, that weren't recorded, but they were, you know, they're not just in the show. So I'm gonna figure out how to put more of you in here somehow, some way. never done that before. But hey, it's a first time for everything. So I'm gonna figure it out. So let me say, let me ask you the final question for people to learn more about you your work and what it is that you do, where can they go to find you? online social media platforms, things of that nature?
54:37
Yeah, I think for anyone that is wants to kind of connect or learn more about my work, they can check out my LinkedIn page, send me a message.
Luke Hobson 54:49
You Yeah. What about your your personal website though?
54:52
It is my first and last name.com all the sidiki.com There you go.
Luke Hobson 55:00
Perfect. Awesome. Well, always, once again, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been absolutely phenomenal. I cannot wait for folks to hear about this. And then to make all their courses into amazing project base learning opportunities. So hey, thanks once again for coming on the show. Of course. Well, that was it, ladies and gentlemen, one awesome episode. I Ali, thank you, once again, for coming on this show. It was so awesome. so impactful just hit so many amazing takeaways from that entire episode. I would not be surprised at all to hear feedback from people saying but they're gonna listen to this one like two times in a row because there's so many different types of takeaways from that entire thing. So Hey, folks, be sure to connect with Ali via LinkedIn. And check out his website. It has his portfolio and many of you have been asking me about samples of portfolios and things to look at. His portfolio is awesome. It is a really well done portfolio. So give that one a look to check out and see an example for yourself. And if you like today's episode, give the show a five star review on Apple podcasts or your podcast player of choice. And don't forget, subscribe to my YouTube channel, I am crushing YouTube in 2021. That is the goal so far, I'm still sticking with it. And and I enjoy I enjoy public speaking and interacting with you folks over there. So subscribe to the YouTube channel today. And be sure to check out instructional design Institute. If you are looking to take your ID skills to the next level, that is the place to do so all the course content is relevant and revolves around taking what you know as far as for instructional design, and really kicking it up a notch. Everything I've learned about for my career and my experiences I put all inside of there for you. And of course, there was an amazing an awesome nerdy community who share their experiences about their ID journeys or trying to actually become an instructional designer and you know everything else in between. So go ahead and give that one a try. There is a free trial for it as well for you too. So you can just actually try and see if it's right for you. But that lays gentlemen, that is all I have for you today. So thank you once again for listening in and of course, stay nerdy out there. And I'll talk to you next time.