She is one of my favorite people ever in instructional design and her name is Dr. Robin Sargent. Robin is the founder of IDOL Courses Academy and in my opinion, she has changed the game when it comes to corporate instructional design. IDOL has been transforming the lives of aspiring instructional designers and the students in this academy love the learning experience. So, I wanted to know more about how IDOL came to be and how has Robin helped so many new instructional designers.
Here’s what we talked about:
Pursuing a PhD in instructional design
Transitioning from higher education to corporate
Surprises and norms about the sectors
Advice for IDs trying to figure out their path
The creation of IDOL Courses Academy
Cohort Based modeling
Technology in instructional design
Hiring managers and portfolios
Advice for entrepreneurs in instructional design
Connect with Robin:
My SBL Workshop Through Lecture Breakers:
To learn more about myself and show:
Want to take your higher education instructional design skills to the next level? Check out Instructional Design Institute.
Recording a podcast or conducting interviews online? Check out SquadCast.
Transcript
Luke Hobson 00:03
Hey folks, and welcome on in to another episode of the podcast. My name is Dr. Luke Hobson. I'm an ID from MIT, a blogger podcaster YouTuber, and the founder of instructional design Institute. You can find all my content over at Dr. Luke hobson.com. My purpose is to help you make the online learning experience incredible for you and for your students. And today's episode is a special one for so many reasons to start at the time of recording this podcast. Hey, it's my birthday. sounds kinda cheesy, but a birthday podcast is right up my alley. And I'm recording this currently pretty early in the morning and a ton of you have already reached out to me on LinkedIn and Facebook with birthday wishes. So just thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I absolutely love our learning nerd community and what we have built over this last year or so which reminds me if you're not part of our community, by the way, join our Facebook group instructional design Institute community, you can find the link down below in the show notes. But back to the episode. Another reason for why this one is awesome is because of our guest. She is one of my favorite people ever in instructional design. And her name is Dr. Robin Sargent. Robin is the founder of idle courses Academy. And in my opinion, she has changed the game when it comes to corporate instructional design. Idle has been transforming the lives of aspiring instructional designers. And the students in this academy love the learning experience. So I want to know more about how idol came to be its story, its origin. And how is Robin helped out so many new instructional designers was also super fascinating to me is that Robin and I worked at the same university years ago. And she made the transition to corporate instead of staying in higher education. How was this curious of why? So we talked about this, and she has a really unique story around everything. So if you are potentially thinking of transitioning from one sector to another, this can help to give you another perspective. Also, Robin is the only person so far to date that has started this podcast with a dance party. So you know, that's the kind of episode you're going to be getting today. So I am not going to take up any more time. Here is the one and only Dr. Robin Sargent Robin, welcome on the podcast.
02:31
Oh, thank you so much Dr. Hobson.
Luke Hobson 02:34
Know You are so welcome. Dr. Robin. Sarge, I'm so glad you're here. This has been such a long time coming. Because the last time I asked you to come on the podcast, which also thank you very much for your patience, by the way, because the last time I asked you to come on was months and months ago. And of course day of I get an email saying but something went down inside of one of my courses. It was live it had like 100 something students in it and like, Oh, no, that's not good. And then sure enough, all the emails, all the tickets came in with like, basically everything's on fire. We need immediate help. And I'm like, No, Robin, I'm so sorry. Like, can we please move this back, like significantly until this problem is solved? So now? Hey, now we're back. Now we're actually doing?
03:20
Well, I mean, priorities, right?
Luke Hobson 03:22
I mean, of course, of course trying. It was, you know, of course, like the priority is obviously pretty high. But then you know, when the students can't do things, that's kind of a problem. So you know, luckily, we were able to fix that. And now it's good to go. And now we get to nerd out about all good stuff with instructional design. So it's gonna be fun. I can't wait to get into our conversation. But before we go any further for the folks at home, can us introduce yourself, talk about your background and why it is that you do.
03:50
Okay, so Hi, there. I'm Dr. Robin Sargent. I am the owner and founder of idle courses. And we are the trade school of instructional design and online learning that serves clients while developing the next generation of creative learning designers. that's mostly what I do is I just serve those students that want to become instructional designers and then create more courses for those who want to upskill in their instructional design careers. And honestly,
Luke Hobson 04:25
I mean, and it's amazing. That is also why you're awesome on the show. Because I do firmly also believe for this corporate world that idle really does deliver the best kind of training that there is out there. And when I first launched this podcast for the very early listeners, they would have known that I started talking and doing these reads of idle, because I kept on talking to folks and they would come to me and they're like, I want to go into corporate What do I do? And I'm like, Hey, I'm not the guy, but I have a friend. She's got a great thing going Oh, is this like so let's let's you know, kind of make sure you're going in the right right direction here. And I'm not kind of, you know, steering you off track. So idle has been a longtime sponsor of the show, which is this been super cool to now finally kind of bring this all in together. But your background is really interesting. And you've had like this really cool story of how you finally got to where you are today. And one of the things I really didn't realize too about your background, as we're talking to more and more instructional designers today is everyone's talking about how the natural thing to do is to go back to school for a degree. That's what everyone used to think a lot of teachers too, are like, why do I go back for another Master's or for whatever, but you actually have a doctorate in instructional design, which I know for a lot of folks, they're like, should I go back and do that? I'm like, well, maybe I don't know. But you actually have words, you can speak to this for experience, what made you decide to go and actually get a PhD in instructional design?
05:54
You know, it's not even a traditional answer. Because I was already a director, when I got my PhD, I was already a director of learning and development at a company. And so I actually decided to get my PhD one, because a PhD was always on my list. Even when I was even studying a different subject matter all together, I always wanted to go and get my PhD. And then I put it off, because I was like, wait, I'm gonna go get a PhD in the same topic without any real world experience. And then I'm just going to be like one of those people in the ivory towers. And so I put it off until I really knew what I was going to be passionate about. Because at that point, I was studying world religions. And I was kind of over it. And so I was like, I'm just gonna wait and see if there's something in the real world that I want to get my PhD in. And it was when I found instructional design, I was like, that's how I'm gonna get my PhD. But the reason why I got it was not because I thought it would help me get a job because I already had landed my first corporate instructional design job. Before I applied for the Ph. D. program. I got it because my whole plan was to work in corporate as an instructional designer, make bank. And then when I was done in corporate to retire and become a president of a university, no joke, that was my plan. And Funny enough, is that instead, I am now kind of a president of my own university.
Luke Hobson 07:37
You carved out your own path? Oh, that's really interesting. So let's talk a bit about that, too. Because you're definitely have a unique background, where you have both feet of the higher ed, you clearly have the corporate you've been in you've done for both things, what made you want to actually go and do the switch, if you will, of going from like, you know, higher ed, maybe I'm going to do this someday to full Brown, like, I'm going right into this corporate world.
08:03
So I was introduced to instructional design as the assistant dean of students at shorter University. And they wanted to move all their on ground programs online. And if you know, faculty members, you know that a lot of them are Luddites, I have always loved technology, it's, I've always been, it's just been a thing that I pick up quickly. And so when I was in that role there, just like, I trained the adjunct faculty on the learning management system, which was Moodle, I would teach them how to run their courses as a hybrid thing, right, because they weren't fully online yet. But they would put assignments online on their LMS. And so I was in charge of that. And then when they wanted to move it online, they gave it to me, and I just built the whole thing. I move their courses online, and then I became the advisor for those new students who are moving online. And then I helped train the faculty that would be teaching online. And I just became obsessed. And the things that I found myself being obsessed with were, of course, like the course design, but I really liked the tools, you know, like there's, and that was back in 2012. And so even then I was like, oh, all these things that you can do to make it pretty and interactive in the multimedia. And I noticed that every time I'd ask for a new toy, I mean a tool. They would, it would take forever. I usually get a no. And I would have to get scrappy, which was fine. But then I found out that they have instructional designers where that's all that you do. And it's in corporate where they do give you all the tech toys that you want. And of course, you don't have to go through the bureaucracy that you have to go through and higher ed to do things to build a car. To get tools to have new ideas, there's just none of those blocks. And that to mention, you can double your income with your just your first entry level job. And so that was it for me. I mean, after I found that out, I just, even though I love so many things about higher ed, I like fast paced, I like tech, I like creativity. And so that was it. And I just did whatever I could to break in.
Luke Hobson 10:31
The bureaucracy is something that I still am like, wow, this is the thing, like the political landscape as far as being in higher ed that has been by far like the, I don't know what to call it of just like, it's something that I never imagined before coming into this higher ed world where I'm like, Okay, I need to network, I need to figure out who actually has the power, who's the decision maker, who's the influencer. And eventually, I got to see like, this little working of how this all worked on was doing like a analysis of every organization I've worked at, just to figure out like, how do I get things done? Who's going to give me the Yes? Because I kept on getting much like, how you were getting a lot of nose? Same thing, where I was like, Alright, how do I get around you? Cuz I never accepted the word No, I was like, I'm just gonna the next person other than the next person. And I'll figure out who can influence the person who keeps on telling me No, until eventually I get what I want. And that's like what I've always done in hiring, and still do to this day. So that has been something that I was not expecting about. What was something that surprised you when you made the switch? As far as for like, what corporate had that you were like, Oh, I never thought about that. Before.
11:37
There was a lot that surprised me. And there was, that was a culture shock for me, I have to admit it, it was a culture shock. Because there it you know, there's a lot about higher ed, where, even though you're not paid very well, and there's a lot of bureaucracy. And there are some real nice perks, I had my own office, I had a lot of independence, there was prestige that came along with my assistant dean title. And nobody was keeping track on what I was doing. And I was a free roaming agent, I was a free agent. When I moved to corporate, oh, there was a lot that was different. I no longer had my own office, I was at a cube, I had a boss that actually acted like a boss. Before it was more of a collaborative thing, you know, the dean, we were buddies. And, you know, I was I more looked to her as a mentor, kind of thing. Whereas in corporate non, that's your boss, you don't really want to have to talk to them, right? You want to go and figure out things on your own. And if you're talking to your boss, and the situation I was in, it was usually because I was in trouble for something. And and so I think those were like, my, those are the things I realized were kind of like the shocks to me. And also that I had to get, I had to tow I had to like, do things at specific times, I had to be responsive to specific things. And it was not okay for me to be kind of loose in my dealings with my email or my responses or schedules. Or it was very different. Right? It was like joining the army.
Luke Hobson 13:41
Enough. One thing that has shocked me but i've i've heard from folks where I was this like How is that possible is that you'll have like this massive, infamous organization and ballooning and development team is like this tiny little thing. And you're like, But wait, it's like this person is responsible for the learning and development of like, how many 1000s of people and there's only like, what two of you like that, that is still something we're I'm trying to wrap my head around because every place I worked at has this like this, there's always been a team. There's been a unit of something as far as for how many instructional designers are project managers or you know, whatever it is, but knowing that someone has to do sometimes literally everything under the sun, and it's just them versus the masses is this like I still even nowadays with like COVID-19 and craziness that like learning and development is one of the first ones that really faced like the budget cuts. And it's just like no like you need them more than literally anything else. Like they are helping you to run this place. So this is like how can you get afford to get rid of them? It's just as crazy to me.
14:41
Oh, yeah. Well, I like my first one. I was lucky I we It was a team. But it was you may be a little unique from other teams in the sense like it wasn't an assembly line. We were all expected to do everything right. We were We were facilitators, we were trainers. We design instructor led training and delivered it, we designed elearning and developed it. And so there was like a team of five of us who did everything. And so that's what my first role was. And then my second one, which was another company, it was a team, but it was more kind of separate as far as like your role. And then my last one as director, that's when I had to do everything all by myself.
Luke Hobson 15:27
Right? Because when you finally get the director title, that's when you get to do literally everything. So yeah, that makes sense. So for trying to figure out exactly where you belong in this instructional design world, like that has been like some topic as far as we're talking about, as we've just been discussing with like, is it higher ed is freelance as a corporate is or whatever, it's always about just trying to figure out like, your passion, where you're finding this meaning in your work. And as people come to you being able then seeing what you've been able to do with idol and all these other amazing things. What piece of advice do you give to someone if they're coming to you? And that is trying to figure out like, Hey, is corporate right for me? What do you tell them?
16:11
Yeah. So the way I like to describe the difference, because you know, I've been an instructional designer for higher ed. Outside of short, I did a we talked about this for the podcast started. But I was an instructional designer for Southern New Hampshire, Southern New Hampshire University. And so I've done both. And what I tell them is, the difference is this. for higher ed, instructional design, you are designing with your subject matter expert, which is usually a faculty member, or somebody who is a faculty member at another university, you are usually given the textbook and the resources by that Learning Resource Manager. And then your job is to decide what's that final project, and then to build the milestones that lead up to that final project. And it's all usually done in some kind of Google Doc. And so you are just writing the course blueprint, everything then goes to somebody else to develop, and kind of the lead about how that course is structured? Yeah, you get to decide that, but the program, objectives are given to you, the course outcomes are given to you. And so really, you're all about structurally aligning those learning objectives. I mentioned the milestones, the final project, what are those assignments, that's all going to lead it up to it. And it's all just writing, it's writing, writing, writing, and linking. And to me, that's boring work. I mean, it's cool. I mean, I can do it, I've done it, I did it for years. But it's boring work to me, to me in corporate, the difference is, is that these people are not paying to be a part of your class, they are not, they don't have any internal motivation that they are going to get their degree at the end, they're not paying for the course. And in fact, your training is probably wasting their time. That's exactly how they see it. And so in corporate, you've got to tell a story, you've got to get their attention, and you are rewarded by being a little flashy about it. And to me, that is exciting is the challenge, to get their attention and to hold their attention, to help them on their actual job and their professional development. And then to get that coveted feedback from them that this actually worked. You never really kind of know if the course that you built for higher ed works for them, you know, that like they got a grade, and they move down the list. But in corporate, you are having to look to see like, Did that actually impact them in their work. And so me, that's what that's what I like about corporate, it's fast paced, you get tech, you get tools, and you have to grab attention, and you get to solve real problems.
Luke Hobson 19:19
So it's interesting, as you were just saying all that too, because my world is like, so unique, where I'm kind of like a hybrid, because I work for, you know, obviously, sort of northeastern and MIT, I've worked at these great universities. But same time, I have so many corporate students that I'm developing a lot of professional development for. So it's really interesting, because like a lot of what you're saying I was just like, totally, I've absolutely been there. And whenever times I was this, like I'm over here out of left field for some other things that if I have to do InDesign, like all these other things from scratch, where it's like, I'd never get handed course outcomes like I'm building from like the ground up like brick by brick. So it's just such a unique perspective to hear about. Like from yours to ours, this is like, it's just kind of crazy, since there's always something different, like every organization is different, there's always something new that's going on a brand new challenge. I will say, though, that one thing that was extremely challenging when I was first starting off is that at Northeastern, we partnered with General Electric, to build an accelerated degree program for their younger generation of employees, because there was a bunch of folks retiring, and taking all this knowledge away with them. So now the younger generation is is like trying to be trained themselves. And they're like, oh, like, you know, we need help here. So we were brought in. And it was really interesting, because I got to go to different plants, and interview folks on the line to figure out the knowledge gaps, and what skills are actually we're trying to acquire and where they want to be in the future. And then take that all back with me, and then build that into the trainings. And then we were able to collect feedback along like every single week. And at the end of everything event, of course, we did different types of follow ups, three months down the line, six months, a year, and so on, kept on going that way. But that was so unique to literally see it in person affecting an organization, and then keep on hearing from folks about how it worked. And there were like, no restrictions there. There were like, just make it awesome. That was kind of it was basically like this, just make this learning awesome. Whatever you got to do make it work. And we're like, cool. Okay, you got it. If there's no restrictions, I will fly. I will make this thing incredible. And like it was a ton of fun.
21:27
Yeah. And that is really unique, too. Right? That's more like a almost like a partnership, like a corporate University type of
Luke Hobson 21:35
it's like, it's a weird hybrid thing. I want to call it Yeah,
21:37
yeah. Yeah. And and that's, I mean, and that's really, that's where I would imagine more higher education would move towards it short in the future. Yeah,
Luke Hobson 21:51
that's good. Yep. Our economy needs it.
21:53
That skills gap. Yeah, I
Luke Hobson 21:55
know. Right? It is a thing. So let's dive in now to idle. That's why I'll learn more about everything. Where did the idea come from? How did you actually make this put it all together to what it actually is today? Tell me the story.
22:12
Okay. Well, so I'm just a little bit of background is, while I was at shorty university, I got an MBA, and it because it's free. So you know, just go get it. I've always been interested in business, I knew I wanted to start my own business. And so that's why, you know, got the MBA, and, but I knew that if I was going to start my own business, it better be something that I'm passionate about. Because starting your own business, you know, unless you go out and just buy a business is a lot of work, right. And you've got to be passionate about it. And so I waited for a while to start my business. And then of course, I became a corporate instructional designer. And I met somebody while I was a director, who came in as a consultant for designing this recruiter training. And I was like, what you run your own business as an instructional designer. I didn't even know that was a thing. You know, I was freelancing on the side, like, kind of getting some side projects, but I didn't know that you could like make an entire business, like just do it full time. And she's like, Oh, yeah. And so then I was like, Okay, well, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna start my own instructional design business. I was, I was on maternity leave with my third and final child. And it was because of the network that I'd built up from those years in corporate that I got a big whale client, and during my mentor, and so I did not return from maternity leave. And I launched IDL courses, January of 2018. And so all I had was this big whale client. And I had a few other ones I had, like Boston Consulting Group, and I was still a freelancer for SNU on the side, and I had a couple other little projects. But in I think it was August of 2018 that my big client said, Okay, well, we're all done now. Then. I was like, what I thought we had 15 left to do. I don't know how that miscommunication happened. Well, I do but it's not worth telling you the story. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I have not done any marketing. I have not done any lead generation. I just oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And it's almost like it was kind of a, like a confluence of events. I've always been that person. Like even my best friend. She always comes to me and she says she comes to me whenever she wants to ask Questions about the real world. I've always been like the real world advisor. I mean, I guess I really was a real world because of my, as the assistant dean, I was, I was the real world advisor for these, it was an adult studies program. And I mean, they made me the youngest assistant dean at, I think I was like, 26, or something. Really.
25:24
So I've just, I've just always kind of been that person who's just been kind of, I just understand kind of, fundamentally how the world works. And so I've, people have always come to me about resumes and career advice. And I'm a damn good negotiator. And so that plus the MBA and my experience as a corporate instructional designer, I even before I started any kind of Facebook group about the common idle or whatever, I had people that found me on LinkedIn, and would reach out and, and asked me how they could become an instructional designer. And I told him exactly how to do it. And I saw success stories. While I was the director, I brought somebody up to be on my team who was a valet, no joke, parking cars, down in Florida, but I knew that he had tech skills. And he had a he was an artist, and I knew that I could train him and instructional design. But I really wanted somebody who was had some really like a really good eye for visual design. And that's just really not an easy thing to teach somebody. And so I convinced my boss to let me hire him. And I would train him. And I did and I told him, I said, Look, you are here to work for me. But you're really here to build your portfolio and get ready to leave, because I don't know how long your jobs gonna last because whatever about that company, and, and so he did him whenever, and they did let him they laid him off. And I made some connections. And he then went straight from that job to making six figures as an instructional designer for Cox enterprise. And so that was like my first like, huge success story. And that was before, you know, I restarted that Facebook group, and I thought, you know what, I really want to have a product, I want to, I don't want to, if you are a freelancer at all, you know that it's a roller coaster life of invoices come in maybe every 30 6090 days, God forbid. And I was like, I just want a product I want to serve people, I am really good at this. I'm really good at just being an advisor and a teacher. And so I started though become an idle Facebook group. And I just serve that community while I was working for clients and trying to get new clients. And I kept putting off creating a full course. Right? Because when you're trying to build for clients, it's it how do you build for clients that are paying you money, and then work on something that you're not getting paid for? Right? It just, it's a lot of work to build a course, and somehow put food on your table. And so I had about 12 lessons done and was build your online portfolio. And I was like, I'm just gonna launch the academy with these 12 lessons. I'm gonna do it learner experience design style, and I have a whole map laid out, but I want to find out what they really want. I'll find out what, who are these people are going to join my idol courses Academy, and what are their actual gaps going to be? And so I launched it in June of 2019. I had 24 founding members. And that's how I did it. I mean, I like it was completely like, what do you want to learn next? What do you want to learn next? And, and, of course, it's just it is evolved since and I used to give all the feedback myself, I used to do all the training. I I mean, I would have office hours, I just spent bunches of time just Hey on holding every single one of my members. And I did that for the first I guess three cohorts worth of the Academy. And then I was like, there's so many there's now 35 people, I need somebody to help me with all this feedback I gotta give. So then I hired some of those founding members, Atlanta, their jobs to become coaches. And then during the fifth, the fifth cohort, I was like, I need some people to be mentors. And so I just hired them to and it is evolved. It is just, it's amazing how well learner experience design works because I just keep taking that feedback. and improving it in real time. And even in between cohorts just keep adding and improving and updating and and it's, it's even beyond what you could do in corporate as far as incorporating feedback and doing that real time adjustments to your programs, and I frickin love it.
Luke Hobson 30:22
I'm so glad I asked that question. I had no idea what any of that I knew the bare minimum that was so cool. What then. So I thought was so interesting too, because you mentioned about cohorts for a couple of different times. And usually cohort is not something that's familiar with a corporate world, what made you decide to run it as a cohort model,
30:42
because I knew that I wanted to do social learning so. And there's something about the energy of everyone starting at the same time, even though like they all have probably different skill sets are at different places. But when you start the same tie with the same group of people, you make real friends, and there is an energy and people still identify themselves, because you know, it's a lifetime program. And the Academy, people are still active in there, though, are my founding members from 2019. And they still identify themselves, like, I'm Cohort One, on Cohort Two, I'm from the third cohort. And it's like, and you build a history, you know, it's so it's kind of it's a, it's a hybrid of, we had cohorts. That's how we did our model at the when I did the adult learner at the university programs. And you could just bond and we had to have like learning groups. I loved it. And I was in my MBA program. And I'm so I participate in that learning group. I am still like, really good friends with those learning team members. And I wanted that same experience in my program. Yeah,
Luke Hobson 32:01
it's a phenomenal idea of trying to do that, because like for my entire doctor program, same thing, we have different cohorts for different years, everyone's still identifies by their cohort, we picked animals for some reason, I don't know why. So we're the owls, we will always be the owls. One of our cohort members got a tattoo now, like it's, it's that hardcore of a family that people are getting tattoos in their bodies of them. And without that, none of us would have finished our dissertations. Like, there's no way you needed, you needed that support model. So when I saw that you did that. I was like God's brilliant, it makes total sense. As far as retention, support and all that good stuff.
32:37
Yeah. And that's really what at this point, the Academy is completely different. I mean, it's just evolved so much since it first open. Now, it's, it's not necessarily a linear program. But it is every kind of training that you'd want about anything instructional design, and resources, all those kinds of things. And since it's not a linear program, because people come in all these different places, and they have different needs, and whatever, what it's really built on is layers of support. And so those layers of support are social learning with your peers, peer feedback, the mentors, the academy coaches, I do group coaching. And, and that's really where I think the magic happens is that accountability and those layers of support, because you can go and find information everywhere. But it's having that dedicated team of people that are around you, that you just can't get outside of something like the academy
Luke Hobson 33:41
and relationships are everything, especially for instructional designers. Not many people can relate to what the heck it is that we do. So when you find those people, you hold on to them, cuz you're like, yes, you're my person. You know what it is that I do? So no, that makes a lot of sense. So I have to dive into tech things because you're a big techie. So obviously, it makes sense to now go into this direction. When we are looking at job postings. Nowadays, there are 7000 technical things that people are asking for. Some of them are literally outdated and don't even exist anymore. Like I see things for about like flash. I was like, Yeah, what do you what are you doing? No. So when you're looking at that, is there something in particular that you tell someone to focus on? Do you have like a certain piece of advice of like, what to tackle first, or what's the best for the organization? Or how do you go about navigating that conversation around tech?
34:34
So the thing is, is I, I know that more skills equals more opportunities. And so I encourage people who are wary of the tech to start small, because all tech they are they're all kind of like sisters really, if you if you can, if you can learn PowerPoint, for Then you will be familiar with that user interface and storyline will look familiar to you. If you can learn one video editing software and get familiar with moving things on a timeline, then you'll be able to use any other program that uses timelines like Articulate Storyline. And so that's really what the key is, is to get good at one tool, really well first, and then move on to the next one. And just notice like, so you'll want to get good at PowerPoint, you want to get good at one video editing tool. And then you want to get good at one elearning authoring tool, and then you can pick up the rest. And that's really what I I tell people, and I see a lot of people if they struggle, or they get overwhelmed. It's because they did not stick with one and learn it really well. They try to do too much at one time. And there's a lot you can do. Oh, PowerPoint.
Luke Hobson 36:02
Yeah. No, perspire. Thanks. It's like what was the exact same thing? I tell the people with learning management systems, there's a million be great at one. They're all the same.
36:13
Great one.
Luke Hobson 36:14
Yeah, that's it. You'll be if you can use Blackboard, you can use Brightspace. You can use that and then edX, Moodle, Canvas, whatever. Like as long as you are just great with one of the tools like you were saying the interfaces are pretty much all exactly the same, like just a few different things. But other than that, if you're great at it, and it's you know, actually that's a it's like a golden rule of our job. No, I think about it. The same thing is true for instructional design models. Be great at one yo need to know every single one be great at one learning theory, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that applies across the board. Oh,
36:45
learn guys, night events.
Luke Hobson 36:48
Someone, Oh, my gosh, someone sent it over to me, I said gagne in a video in describing that. And then they sent me a video of like, the proper way of saying it. And I was like, I know like, Oh, my God, like, how dare me and like, I know better. Like, why did I do that? But you know, that's what happens sometimes. So you also mentioned to about portfolios. And when we had Dr. Nicole popping out of Lou Gehrig on the show the other day, she was talking about the perspectives of an ID hiring manager. We didn't go too much, though, into the portfolio, world side of things. When your opinion, what are hiring managers looking for in a portfolio nowadays?
37:27
So the thing is, is there's lots of different types of hiring managers, right, we've got the instructional designer, hiring manager, and we have your typical HR person, hiring manager. And then you also need to get many times past a recruiter. Right? And so for the recruiter says, Do you have a portfolio? Yeah. For the HR person, it's, you know, they're going to be looking for things that are similar to what they are already familiar with. Right? If especially if they're not familiar with specifically, you know, all of what you do as an instructional designer, many times instructional designers work under the HR umbrella, I know. And my last job as a director, I reported directly to the VP of HR. And so she, I mean, she didn't quite know what, what I did, she just let me do whatever I wanted. So but I tell what I tell my students and I used to first identify what is your ideal, ideal role, and then you can narrow down what goes in your portfolio. So if you know the type of instructional designer that you want to be, then you can, you know, form your portfolio around those ideal roles for you. However, I do encourage a minimum viable portfolio and a minimum viable portfolio, in my opinion, includes two to three elearning samples, at least one, a storyline. One instructor led training and I mean, the full thing, the deck, the facilitator guide, the Participant Guide, one full instructional design, document, and, and a job aid or two, right, that's a minimum viable portfolio. And even if all you want to do is write scripts, the the advantage to you building an E learning course, is that you are showing that you not only are able to write scripts and do the design and do the analysis, but you understand how the tools work, so that you actually can create an informed storyboard. Or you could create your own darn prototypes if you are in an agile environment. And that makes you more valuable than somebody who only can write the scripts. And so that's what I encourage people who are, if you're going to start fresh and you're going to build a portfolio from scratch, you might as well do it that way. Where you, you know, you're more marketable.
Luke Hobson 40:13
Yeah, makes plenty of sense. You have a favorite example of what one of the folks in Idaho have actually made.
40:18
Oh, my gosh, they have made some really cool things.
Luke Hobson 40:21
So if you had to pick one, I know it's just like your pick. Okay, so
40:25
Okay, I do have a favorite one. And I don't think she'd mind me calling her out. A Russa, she made a how to use Excel, like the when to use Excel versus word. I think it was Excel versus word when to use the two different programs. And it was a game of thrones theme game. It was awesome. She created I had the music, she created her own little characters that look like Game of Thrones characters, but they are kind of those big head versions of them, you know, we're talking about, it's hard to describe, you know, verbally but it, it was just, it was so much fun. And now she is a learning experience designer, and, and she's just rocking it. And she lives in Canada. And she's, she's doing great things now. But that was probably one of my favorite things that I saw in the academy. I mean, I've seen a lot of other really cool things along the way. But that one was that one really stood out to me.
Luke Hobson 41:36
And that's really cool too. Because that just shows that a portfolio doesn't always have to be like one specific thing. You can go in different directions, you can go to creativity, you can do what it is that you want to do. And I know that's what a lot of people have been asking about is this, like, does it have to be templated, like this service of essence, like, No, you can do something really off the wall, when fun, you can make it creative. I've seen one that was really interesting of walking through a museum. And as your character is going through the museum, you look at pieces of art, and then that pops up screenshots of what they've done. And like you can actually walk through something like a gallery. And I was like, Ah, that's really creative
42:13
lover. And I would just like to also add you so much to go on portfolio, what they're really looking for is your design thinking. And so while I mentioned those pieces of assets that you should have in there, you never want to just put those assets by themselves, you want to say, the tools you use, how much time in development, the title of your project. And that challenge solution results. Because really, the point of your portfolio is to show that you can think like an instructional designer. And I would encourage people not to use like storyline templates, you can go and get some really nicely designed PowerPoint templates that you use as your wireframe for how you design your courses, right so that you have a really nice visual look. But you do not want to use the templates that people have seen over and over again. In your portfolio. Nope. Man,
Luke Hobson 43:09
it's always good to you know, have that information. Right there as well, too. Talking about like your role in the project, the purpose what you're trying to solve? Did you actually meet the outcomes? Yeah, go all those different things make sense? All right. So the final thing I have to ask you about because in my eyes when I think about a entrepreneur, in the instructional design space, I think of you honestly like that's just like you literally come to mind, hence why I want to now ask you about this as far as for advice for entrepreneurs in the educational space? Where do they begin? What would you tell someone who's this like, think I want to do this, but like, I don't know what my first step should be? What would you tell them?
43:51
You mean, they want to be a freelance instructional designer, or they want to be a digital course product creator?
Luke Hobson 43:56
Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Not freelance. Let's do the other one. Because I feel like freelance is his own kind of thing.
44:02
Well, so the thing about it. And this is the thing that you really almost learn the hard way until you really get into it. So if I could save somebody right now, just by telling you this information, that if you want to go down the Digital Course product road, which obviously I love it because you get to see, you're the whole point of a digital course product, unless you are selling directly to companies or universities. But if you're selling directly to consumers, much like I am right in the academy or whatever. It is about getting a real transformation for your learner's. And so you have to narrow it down your course your signature program, your course or whatever it is, has to get a transformation for that learner otherwise, you're you're just you it's just nice to know information. So, and then if also, when you build a course, you're not just building a course product, what you're really building is a business that has the marketing, and those other channels built around it, to sell your course and to serve your people. And that's a, that's a whole. That's a whole nother skill set. And a whole nother thing. I mean, just look at like, Luke and I like what do we have to do the most of like, Yes, I get to teach. Yes, I get to create courses. But a lot of what I have to spend time doing is writing sales pages, creating content, getting blog posts out there, YouTube channels, podcasts, like LinkedIn, social media posts. And otherwise, you don't sell your course. And it just sits there, you could build like the most wonderful course, that has like the best transformation for your learners. But if you don't market, they don't know who you are, and they don't buy. And so they'll never get to experience that transformation from you. And so that's what I would tell entrepreneurs, get ready to learn about the business side of selling digital course products before you ever even start to build your course and get and do beta testing. Like just write an outline, and see if people would pay for that.
Luke Hobson 46:39
Yeah, why not? Wonderful. And I wish I knew about a lot of these things until I started doing it myself where I was like, wow, this is taking up so much time. So much time. It's it's just absolutely absurd. Well, wonderful. Robert, I will not take up any more of your time because I know that you have to get on going. So where can people go to find more and learn more about you and idol and everything else?
47:02
Oh my gosh, I love talking to the people. So you can find me on idol courses.com on LinkedIn, you are free to connect with me, Robin Sargent. And you can message me directly. And I'm on Facebook, at idle courses on Instagram at idle courses, Google idle courses, you'll find me
Luke Hobson 47:22
always just Google it. Why me? Wonderful. Robin, thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom and your tips. This episode has been awesome. So once again, thank you so much for coming on.
47:33
Thank you so much for having me, Luke. Well, folks, that
Luke Hobson 47:36
was my awesome conversation with Robin. If you are curious to learn more about instructional design in the corporate world, I would highly recommend for you to check out idle. But links to everything are down below in the show notes to to help you find everything. And the next cohort starts on June 7. So you still have some time to sign up for the waiting list. And I would highly recommend for you to get on that one today. As always, if you enjoyed today's episode, give this podcast a five star rating. If you're listening to this on a podcast player, or give it a like if you're listening to everything on YouTube. Every review, comment and share really helps this podcast grow. So thank you and advanced. To learn more about my instructional design content, you can head on over to Dr. Luke hobson.com. also wanted to remind you there is still some time left to sign up for my scenario based learning workshop through Dr. Barbie honey cuts, lecture breakers virtual summer conference. If you want to nerd out with me and other amazing online learning experts sign up for that conference today. And that is taking place between June 8 and June 10. So still a little bit of time to sign up for that one. And finally, the last thing that I wanted to share with you today we started to go into this one have a conversation with Robin, but a bit of a sneak peek for what's to come is that I have been answering the question so much on Do I need a degree to become an instructional designer. Now I have my own thoughts and opinions around this. But what I wanted to do is I wanted to find someone within the corporate learning world and also find someone within academia and hear about their perspectives on this. And the two people who I have coming on the show later on. They are both rock stars and the instructional design world. So it's going to be absolutely awesome for you to hear about both perspectives, which I feel is is very important. I don't want you just to hear about one side and not the other. Obviously you should be hearing and listening to both then of course I'll do some form of wrap up and chiming in of what I've been thinking about things all along. But that's what's to come. So hey, if you listened all the way to the end of this episode, you just found something else that some of the people may have not heard about, which is kind of cool. But folks, that's all I have for you today. Stay nerdy out there. Now. I'll talk to you next time.